How Relevant Is Jesus?

Ken Taylor
Coming up on Philosophy Talk…

John Perry
What would Jesus do?

Andrew Fiala
For me what’s interesting about Jesus is he’s this model of a life of virtue. And what does that tell us about politics? I have no idea.

Lou Reed
Jesus, help me find proper place.

John Perry
Do we know anything about Jesu’ views on contemporary moral problems?

Ken Taylor
What would Jesus really think?

Andrew Fiala
It’s complicated.

Ke Taylor
Our guest is Andrew Fiala, author of “What Would Jesus Really Do? The Power and Limits of Jesus’ Moral Teachings.”

Andrew Fiala
It’s not that there are no good answers, but there are better and worse answers, ad we gotta figure those out as we go.

John Perry
Recorded in front of a live audience at the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California.

Ken Taylor
What Would Jesus Do? Coming up on Philosophy Talk.

Ken Taylor
This is Philosophy Talk, radio that questions everything…

John Perry
…except your intelligence. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Today we’re recording the program at the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California.

John Perry
Our thinking originates at philosophers corner on the lovely Stanford campus.

Ken Taylor
Today’s program is part of the arts and lecture series here at the College of the Sequoias. Welcome to Philosophy Talk.

John Perry
Ken, our topic tonight is: what would Jesus do?

Ken Taylor
John, that’s a good an interesting question. I mean, millions of people believe that Jesus is the Lord, the Son of God sent to earth to teach us how to live. Many others, including some of the founding fathers, like Jefferson or modern day, Unitarians. And a lot of people who don’t consider themselves Christian at all, aren’t convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, but they still think that he was a great moral teacher, one of the most important moral teachers. And when believers and non believers alike, confronted ethical decision or a morally loaded issue, they often ask themselves, What would Jesus do here?

John Perry
How would Jesus have voted on California’s Proposition 8? That is, what views did he have? Or would he have had on same sex marriage? What would he counsel President Obama to do about Afghanistan? Would he have been a nation builder, a pacifist, an anti terrorist or what? Would he oppose the death penalty? Would he pay his taxes without protest? Would he oppose abortion? Some abortions, all abortions? How about euthanasia? There are so many issues, it would be good to have the advice of this great moral teacher about whether or not he was as divined as some people think.

Ken Taylor
Well, okay, so let’s think about how we’re going to answer that question. I mean, in order to ask these questions and answer them, we need to know something about Jesus, about the historical Jesus—what he said, what he thought, what he did. Of course, you know, there’s a problem with that: just about everything about the historical Jesus has been questioned by somebody or other, I mean, including even his existence. So there may not even have been a Jesus.

John Perry
Well, you know, we like to question everything, but we can’t question everything all the time. I mean, we got to make some assumptions to get started on our topic. So I think the ground rules are we assume that Jesus did exist. I think that’s pretty plausible. And what’s also plausible, that the Gospels, although written 60 or so years after he lived, are still accurate, at least on the points on which they agree.

Ken Taylor
But the you know, I hate to be the skeptical one but there’s a problem. The gospels don’t agree in everything. They don’t all tell the familiar story of his birth in Bethlehem, for example. Matthew has Jesus saying things on the mound that Luke has him saying on the plain, so…

John Perry
Well, picky picky. I mean, look, we’re interested in what Jesus would tell us, what moral advice he would give us. And for our purposes, the Gospels pretty much agree on Jesus moral teachings. Moreover, many of them agree that the core of these teachings comes down to something that Luke has a version of in chapter six and it goes like this. Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who abuse you. To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, And from him who takes away your coat, don’t withhold your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you. And of him who takes away your goods, do not even ask for them back. As you wish men would do to you, do so to them.

Ken Taylor
You know, I don’t know what that says about abortion or euthanasia. But I see one clear implication of that. It’s pretty clear that Jesus wouldn’t oppose single sex marriage. He’d have to ask himself this question,if we were thinking about this issue: if I were gay, wouldn’t I want people to allow me to marry, and then he would have to do as he would want to be done to if he weren’t gay. And so ipso facto, QED, you’d have to vote for gay marriage.

John Perry
Well, I don’t want to rain on your parade and you know, ruin what what I’m sure is one of your first excursions into Jesus interpretation. But when Jesus was asked about divorce, he actually expressed a pretty traditional view of marriage. He pointed out that God made man and woman, and when they were married, they become one. And his view on and divorce was even a little bit more strict than that of the Old Testament. He said there should be no divorce, except in the case of unfaithfulness of the wife. I’m not at all convinced he would be so keen to vote for gay marriage.

Ken Taylor
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know if man and man married and they become one too. so but I don’t know. But look, maybe he was traditional about marriage, but you have to admit that he would be way over on the liberal side of things. Take this: blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God, he said. And to the rich he said, Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, go sell what you have, and give to the poor. And famously, he observed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like class warfare—definitely a Democrat, maybe even a socialist.

John Perry
Ken—so superficial. Jesus was an individualist. He thought people should give to the poor, yes, but of their own free will—not because the state extracts taxes from them and then redistributes them to the poor.

Ken Taylor
“Give to Caesar what Caesar…”—remember that.

John Perry
I think if Jesus had followed the 2008 presidential election, maybe he was from some point of view or another. I don’t think he would have been all that enthused by those politicians that want to take everyone’s money, give it to the state, and then redistribute it to have the state right our ills. Admittedly, he would not have been so impressed by sellouts to corporations either.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, maybe it’s not so easy to figure out what Jesus would actually do. But you know, I think we need some help. Here. We need the help of an expert.

John Perry
Andrew Fiala, who wrote the book, “What Would Jesus Really Do?” is backstage and he’s going to join us in a bit.

Ken Taylor
And we’ll want our live audience here in Visalia to be part of the conversation too.

John Perry
But first, our Roving Philosophical Reporter, Molly Samue, files this report.

Molly Samuel
Debates over legalizing same-sex marriage had been framed as pitting believers against nonbelievers.

Unknown Speaker
…to take a stand for marriage.

Molly Samuel
There are Christians on both sides of the divide, citing Jesus’s teachings to backup their beliefs either for or against same-sex marriage. So does the Bible say anything about gay marriage?

Father Luis Rodrigues
No, it doesn’t.

Molly Samuel
Father Luis Rodriguez is the rector at the Episcopal Church of the Savior in Hanford, California. And over in Madera father Larry Toschi is the pastor at St. Joseph’s parish.

Father Larry Toschi
Well, the Bible would not consider gay marriage to be moral or acceptable.

Molly Samuel
Hanford and Madera are about an hour’s drive away from each other in California’s Central Valley. Madera is a farming hub located at the center of California.

Father Larry Toschi
If you take the width of the state and the length of the state and find the middle—we say we’re the heart of California.

Molly Samuel
Hanford is a smaller town, it used to be an act of train depot.

Father Luis Rodrigues
Hanford, I suppose it seemed a lots of changes, certainly economically, but it still has this sort of this great lady feel, you know, a little worse for wear but very dignified.

Molly Samuel
Both churches are active in the surrounding communities and every day both serve food to the hungry. Both do not agree on extending the rights of marriage to same sex couples. Father Rodrigues says Jesus wouldn’t exclude anyone.

Father Luis Rodrigues
What we see consistently in Jesus is his commitment to care and advocacy for the most disenfranchised in society. And these aren’t people who are disenfranchised, primarily because of something they’ve done. It’s because of something they are.

Molly Samuel
But that’s not the point. According to Father Toschi.

Father Larry Toschi
If we condemn murder, are we discriminating against murderers if we condemn the stealing, or are we discriminating against thieves? Sinful activity is distinct from discriminating against a person.

Molly Samuel
Father Toschi emphasizes that the Catholic tradition is made up of much more than just scripture. He’s also guided by church doctrine. And Episcopal father Rodrigues cites the importance of the church community in his beliefs. Nonetheless, both can point to passages in the Bible that back up their arguments.

Father Luis Rodrigues
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed Jesus is about finding ways in which people can be included the blind in the past closer to the human enterprise, as opposed to excluded.

Molly Samuel
That’s not what father Toschi says.

Father Larry Toschi
Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons, they do penalty for their perversity. That’s very clear language.

Molly Samuel
According to Father Rodrigues judging anyone based on who he or she is borders on heresy.

Father Luis Rodrigues
If your religion makes you feel superior in any way, it is not real religion. It’s something else.

Molly Samuel
And to Father Toschi, not making those kinds of judgments amounts to the same thing.

Father Larry Toschi
There’s a whole clear message about morality about right and wrong. It has to be in the context from which it comes. It’s nonsensical to take it out of context. I think it’s unfair and even intellectually dishonest to do so.

Molly Samuel
In this case, if you’re wondering what Jesus would do, the answer probably depends on who you ask. For Philosophy Talk, I’m Molly Samuel,

John Perry
You’re listening to Philosophy Talk, coming to you from the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California. I’m John Perry, along with Ken Taylor,

Ken Taylor
And we’re joined now by Andrew Fiala. He’s a professor of philosophy at Cal State University Fresno, where he’s also director of the Ethics Center there. And He’s author of “What Would Jesus Really Do: The Power and Limits of Jesus’s Moral Teaching.” Andrew, welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Andrew Fiala
Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

John Perry
Andrew, tell us briefly, how did ethics Professor come to write a book on what Jesus would really do?

Andrew Fiala
Well, I wrote it for my students, because I have a lot of Christian students who think that the answers to the ethical questions are found in the Bible. I teach ethics classes every semester, and I’ll get students who write on exams that Well, Jesus says that, you know, gay marriage is wrong, or that abortion is wrong, or something like that. And I actually got curious, you know, where my students write about this. So when did a little research and tried to find out? If there really isn’t answer to what Jesus would really do?

John Perry
Now, earlier, Ken and I hinted that it’s not always so easy to figure out what Jesus would really do what answer he would give to contemporary moral questions. And I know, that’s a theme of your book, too. But let’s start off with something more positive. I mean, what do you think was the core of Jesus’s moral teaching?

Andrew Fiala
I describe it as an ethics of love. And he the golden rule, very clear moral message, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. That seems to be pretty obvious through all the Gospels. And then there’s this model of self sacrifice that mean, Jesus’s life is kind of the life of virtue and the virtues include peacefulness, love, forgiveness, toleration, and at the end of the life story, I mean, there’s this obvious message that one should be willing to sacrifice oneself for the well being of others,

Ken Taylor
Right, so he is a powerful moral example to us. There’s this thing called virtue ethics, which says, instead of focusing on rules of conduct, be like a good person would be and a good person is a person who has a skill at living a human life. But I ask you, is there any straightforward application that we can make to the crop moral problems of the day of Jesus’s moral teaching?

Andrew Fiala
My skeptical answer is, I mean, the the question, What would Jesus really do? My answer is, often we don’t know. And one of the difficulties is that a lot of people think they know the right answer.

Ken Taylor
Right, but there must be some things that we could say that, you know, when I was young, in Ohio, in the Midwest, the word Christian was synonymous with good because if you did something bad, they my parents would say, and my neighbors would say, that was a very unChristian thing to do. I mean, a very unChristian thing that that was synonymous with good or not good if it was unChristian, but I there are some things that we can say, yes, Jesus does command us to do.

Andrew Fiala
I mean, I think that Jesus really was a pacifist, that there’s a I think there’s a nonviolent message all the way through. And I think again, you see that in the life story, you know, he could have raised an army at one point he says, Don’t Don’t you think I could have called legions of, you know, soldiers down to fight but no, there’s no fighting instead, there’s, you know, willing submission. So I think there’s a pretty strong pacifist core well.

John Perry
So it sounds like Jesus from your point of view, the one that you might be clear about is one thing that’s extremely counterintuitive to most people that you know, maybe after 911 George Bush would have said, Well, how about the Sears Tower or you want to bomb that journey?

Ken Taylor
I mean, I would take the passive ism is connected up with the Love thy neighbor as thyself. I mean, in any situation, face within a person, your actions have to be taken out of love, not hate, not anger, not but out of love. I mean, so whatever the loving thing to do in a given situation that would be is that—

Andrew Fiala
Well here’s part of the challenge, too, is that if you buy the Christian theology, so if you go with the religion side of it, then if you sacrifice yourself or willing to turn the other cheek, you’ll be rewarded in the next life.

John Perry
Yeah, you’re gonna be rewarded next segment with more questions.

Ken Taylor
You’re listening to Philosophy Talk, coming to you from the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California. We’re asking to what extent Jesus can help us deal with modern moral dilemmas. Our guest is Andrew Fiala author of “What Would Jesus Really Do?”

John Perry
In our next segment, we’re going to ask what guidance Jesus ethical views gives us about abortion, euthanasia, pacifism, war and violence and other contemporary topics.

Ken Taylor
A loaded agenda—plus questions from our live audience, when Philosophy Talk continues.

Bobby Bare
Dropkick me, Jesus, through the goalposts of life

John Perry
Welcome back to Philosophy Talk. Are you waiting for Jesus to drop kick you through the goalposts of life? Do you look to Jesus to set goalposts for your life? I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. This is Philosophy Talk. And we’re asking how relevant is Jesus to the moral dilemmas of our day, we’re coming to you from the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California. Our guest is Andrew Fiala author of “What Would Jesus Really Do?”

John Perry
Andrew, let’s follow up a little on our issue before the break. Jesus wasn’t the first in the Jewish tradition. They say love your neighbor, you that that idea comes up in the Old Testament. But there the emphasis is clearly on neighbor, right? I mean, you don’t mean God says Love your neighbor, but he says destroy those other guys. Yeah. Now is it really? I mean, shouldn’t we interpret when you say Jesus was a pacifist? Shouldn’t we interpret that within this context? Maybe he was a little more pacifistic. Maybe he wasn’t his thing to raise troops. But he would you really think he was a stern, hidebound pacifist, and would have been in the modern context?

Andrew Fiala
Well, I mean, some of this, you have to look at the context of the texts were written in. And you know, there was this problem in Judea at the time that the Romans were an occupying force, and the Jews tried to, you know, fight back, and they found that it didn’t work so well. So part of it might be a reaction against the political reality of the time. But I think you quoted this at the beginning that passage from Luke where he says very clearly love your enemies. And, you know, there’s some thinkers in the Western tradition who take that really seriously. Tolstoy, for example, Tolstoy said at one point, you know, when Jesus says don’t return evil for evil, he means

Ken Taylor
it but you know, the Bible, okay? Certain Protestant fundamentalists think that the Bible is the strict, literal, complete truth, God, this, every answer to every question is in the Bible. And Catholics tend not to think that they think there’s the Bible plus interpretation plus theology plus all this stuff. And think of Augustine and just war theory. And he doesn’t purport to find that exactly in the Bible, but he purports to find the grounds of it in Scripture. And then he thinks through kind of things beyond I mean, because if the Visigoths are coming over your city, and you say, We love you, well, and they sack your city, and they send you off to the great hereafter.

Andrew Fiala
Yeah well, I mean, you know, I’m a philosophy professor. So I think we need to go past the Bible and use human reason. And, you know, we’ve come a long way since 2000 years ago, I mean, we’ve developed science and political systems that are quite different. So, but nonetheless, Jesus, you know, he is like, the central figure of our tradition, and everything has to kind of bounce back and forth.

Ken Taylor
That’s certainly true. I, I don’t disagree with that. But I’m just saying that there’s multiple approaches to Jesus in within Christian theology. One takes the Bible as an inspiration as a deep source of basic principles, like the respect due to every human being, as a child of God, the ultimate inviolable respect due to every human being. But now, what moral theory follows from that, you know, lots of different things and the Bible doesn’t articulate a single,

Andrew Fiala
Yeah and you know, you mentioned Agustin and the just war theory and Augustine. I mean, one of the ways to understand the just war theory is that when you love your neighbor as yourself, you will defend your neighbor when your neighbors attack from someone else.

John Perry
So maybe we should explain a terminology that just war theory is that some wars are just and other wars aren’t just so it’s not pacifism. But it’s not just you know, you can strike out on anybody and this has been appealed to, that just wars can be fought in good faith by Christians.

Ken Taylor
And the first articulator of just war theory was Augustine, right, who claims some kind of divine grounding for.

John Perry
But you think on that issue, Augustine was not really faithful to the Scripture.

Andrew Fiala
Well, I mean, there are others who I mean, the Quakers and the men I mean, there’s a serious tradition of Christian pacifism. All the way up to Martin Luther King Jr. But I mean, that’s actually one of the problems. What would Jesus really do? Well, look at all these rival interpretations. I mean, this shows us how complicated it is. And if you I mean, War and Peace is just one example.

Ken Taylor
Let’s take abortion. That’s a hot button one. That’s a very hot button. One and many, many, many people who are anti abortion, are anti abortion on grounds of something having to do with the Bible and Jesus’s teaching and religion. Do you think there’s anything in the Bible that justifies the anti abortion stance?

Andrew Fiala
Well, I think it’s complicated. As with all but but the thing is, Jesus never says a word about abortion. You read the gospel, there’s there’s no indication that Jesus considered it as an issue. And again, why should he because I mean, you know, in the ancient world practices were quite different. It was nowhere near like, what we have with safe medical technology, and so on. And you know, the view of women in the ancient world was quite different as well. So it’s not surprising that Jesus would be silent about that.

John Perry
But most people who are firmly opposed to abortion, particularly those who are opposed to any kind of abortion, for any reason, reason as follows that the fetus has a human soul, and destroying somebody with a human soul is murder. And even if it’s done to improve someone else’s life in quite important ways, or it’s wrong, murder is wrong. And in the Old Testament, Thou shalt not kill. But now this depends on this notion of a soul, which is a big part of Christianity, after Augustine, then in the Greek ideas are kind of filtered into Christianity, is there much in the New Testament? Or should I say in particular, in Jesus, as opposed to Paul that talks about the soul?

Andrew Fiala
Not a really huge issue. Go back, just take a minute. Yeah. All that to say, go back to the, to the Nativity narrative in the Gospel of Luke. And there’s this really interesting moment when the Virgin Mary, the soon to be mother of Jesus gets together with Elizabeth, the soon to be mother of John the Baptist. And the fetuses move in the womb in response to one another. And some Christians will argue that Well, that’s an example that, you know, from the beginning of the Christian tradition, there was this idea that life in the womb was what it is, from the moment it’s conceived. Well, that’s a really cool story, I think. But what does that tell us again, about a woman that’s raped? And I mean, there’s a whole bunch of other complicated issues.

Ken Taylor
I remind our listeners, you’re listening to Philosophy Talk, we’re talking about what the relevance of Jesus were with Andrew Fiala who’s authored a book called What would Jesus really do? And we’d love questions from our live audience here at the College of Sequoia in Visalia, California. And we have some questions here. Welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Ian
Hello, my name is Ian Forsythe. I’m the president of the philosophy club here at cls. My question. We have different figures in history that are seeming the same light as Jesus that are seem to be incarnations of gods such as Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed, would what they do in prison situations differ from what Jesus would do?

Ken Taylor
I don’t know the answer to that question. You haven’t written a book on what any moral teacher do?

Andrew Fiala
Well, we need an expert in comparative religion. One of the interesting things I mean, again, as a philosopher, I approach this mean, I’m always constantly thinking, well, what would Socrates really do? It is a whole different question. Same struggle that I have, I don’t know what Socrates would do about abortion, or euthanasia.

John Perry
But there I mean, in a way, Socrates seems a little more similar to Jesus than Muhammad and Muhammad did raise an army. Socrates kind of just hung around the Parthenon getting on peoples nerves, and Jesus want us, Jesus, somewhere in between a little more active wandered around. Muhammad seems an outlier there.

Ken Taylor
Let me give you a worry that I have about the way you I know your book is has a surprising answer. Most people asked what would Jesus really do are trying to figure out what Jesus really do and want to do what Jesus did your book is about? Well, you know what, the Bible isn’t a complete moral theory. It’s not a complete moral guide. There’s moral inspiration. Jesus exemplifies these outstanding virtues. But he doesn’t say, here’s a complete plan for living. One of the strange things is that people actually want what do you think is behind that? We want a kind of authority to say, this is what you should do? I mean, you could think of it like this. God gave us a reason not to sit in US unused as Shakespeare has Hamlet put it, right. But for us, to us, and what is our reason for it’s one of the things is we’re figuring out is, what are we gonna do in this or that situation? I mean, is that no,

Andrew Fiala
You know, I teach these Applied Ethics courses every semester. And the standard way to teach that is to, you know, the pro and con, here’s one side, here’s the other. And I always worry at the end of the semester that students are going to think there’s no answer to those questions, because there’s so many good arguments on either side. And you know, my point about I tell the students at the end of semester, it’s not that there are no good answers, but there are better and worse hands. sirs. And we got to figure those out as we go.

John Perry
But just as I mean, just, we don’t want to be too hard on Jesus here. I mean, you could write a book, what would reason really do? And it would be just as full of well, the people like Truman used to say, give me a one armed economist, because I’m kind of sick of this on the one hand and on the other. Is there any one arm moral teacher out there? We should hear.

Ken Taylor
From my live audience, you’re listening to Philosophy Talk, we’re talking about the relevance of Jesus what Jesus was really do with our guest, Andrew Fiala and we got a question from our live audience. Welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Young Man
Thank you. I appreciate you referring to me as a young man, by the way. My question goes back to something John said about, you know, turning the other cheek? Should if someone flies a plane into the World Trade Center, should we allow them to also fly a plane into the Sears Tower? And it seems to me that from a Jewish point of view, Jesus ethical teaching about turning the other cheek is completely incoherent. It makes absolutely no sense to me. How would you how would you dress?

Ken Taylor
Well, I tell you that Old Testament Yahweh—he doesn’t take any stuff. Just get you. I’m not gonna just get you. I’m gonna get your first board. I’m gonna get your your animal. Yeah, gotta get your animals. I gotta, you know, Old Testament, y’all Wait, was it mean?

John Perry
It depends a little on, I mean, what did Jesus mean by neighbors and enemies. And I mean, it doesn’t seem like he was thinking from the point of view of a world leader, the leader of an army, somebody subject to armed attack, because that’s a role he chose chose not to play. So it’s somewhat ambiguous. I mean, if you love your neighbor, your neighbor may be the one who’s in the Sears Tower, your neighbor may be the one or not the women of Afghanistan who are being treated so badly by the Taliban. They are our neighbors. So how can if we love our enemies, our neighbor doesn’t give very clear advice.

Ken Taylor
Well, wait a minute, though. But I think there’s a deep insight here. And I think it’s a very clear thing that is at the root of much Western moral theorizing, that no matter what your relationship is, to another human being, right, you owe them a kind of respect, because they have a kind of inviolable dignity, when that’s taken up by by philosophers who don’t want to place ethics on a religious foundation, but on a foundation of reason, as like the fundamental principle. And I think that thought—±

John Perry
Yeah, I mean, the samurai respect their enemies before they slice their heads off. And that’s good, but it’s time for you to say.

Andrew Fiala
The point about, you know, loving strangers even is I mean, it’s there in the New Testament texts in the parable of the Good Samaritan is that exact story. But I mean, back to the question, I think, what for me, what’s interesting about Jesus is he’s this model of a life of virtue. And what does that tell us about politics? I have no idea. So I mean, I really view Jesus as this kind of human individual living a peaceful life. And that’s quite different from the role of what the king or sovereign has to do. And you see this tension to in the New Testament. Paul, at one point in the letter to the Romans. I mean, he has this with the chapter 12, he talks about peace and love in the chapter 13 says, but the sovereign can use the sword to execute, you know, God’s justice on the wicked. And there’s a tension here between private virtue and the level of piety.

Ken Taylor
I think you’re right, let’s get some more questions in it. Welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Tahoe
All right. I’m Tahoe Fiala I’m Andrew Fiala son. I’m from Fresno. And my question is, you’ve been talking about all these, like, abortion and gay marriage and same sex and stuff like that. But what about the small stuff? Like with Christmas coming up? What what do you what he really want his birthday to return in in this whole holiday? Where you shop and shop and shop and spend and spend and spend and receive and all that kind of stuff?

Ken Taylor
Oh, that’s a good question. That’s a good question. That’s from your own son.

Andrew Fiala
I didn’t tell him to say that.

Ken Taylor
Your son is 12 years old? I think he’s the youngest person to ever ask that question on Philosophy Talk.

John Perry
The general point is good. It may be a lot easier to identify things that Jesus wouldn’t do and wouldn’t like then it would be to actually pin down precisely what he would do and would like, right.

Ken Taylor
Why don’t we get one last question before we go to our break.

Dali
Hi, my name is Dali from Earlimart, Philosophy Club member here at COS. My question is, what Jesus really do about modern moral implications of immigration?

Ken Taylor
What would Jesus—I bet you he’d shrug his shoulders.

Andrew Fiala
I mean, the actually the Good Samaritan story tells us something about this, that I mean, again, that Samaritan story is about a stranger who’s from a different era. And the group who stops and helps and I mean, again about the law of this. And you know, the political context. I don’t know what Jesus would say. But it seems clear that Jesus would want us to respect people, regardless of, you know, national boundaries or ethnic differences.

Ken Taylor
Does that mean, though, that we can’t have a controlled immigration policy? Does that mean that we can’t, you know, expel illegal I mean, it doesn’t doesn’t have any thick content. I mean, there’s a sort of general guidance, respect people independently of your relationship to them. But other than that…

John Perry
But I mean, the immigration thing starts with the premise that it’s possible to find very strange, which is if I’m sitting here, and there’s a river, and there’s something on the other side of the river, something to eat a job to have, who gives anyone the right to say I can’t go across and get it. And so I think Jesus would be puzzled by the whole idea of restricting people and nation states,

Ken Taylor
You’re listening to Philosophy Talk. We’re asking how relevant is Jesus? Our guest is Andrew Fiala author of “What Would Jesus Really Do?”

John Perry
In our next segment, we’re going to ask about the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, it’s usually thought to capture the essence of Jesus ethical teaching, and other religions and other philosophers, as one of our questioners pointed out, have put forward very similar ideas and even the philosopher Kant. But what does it really mean? And how clear are the directions that gives us in particular situation.

Ken Taylor
We’re coming to you from the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California. We’ll take more questions and comments from our live audience when Philosophy Talk continues.

Depeche Mode
Your own personal Jesus / Someone to hear your prayer / Someone who’s there

John Perry
Welcome back to the program. Do you have your own personal Jesus? Well, how relevant is this advice in the 21st century? I’m John Perry. This is Philosophy Talk, that program that questions everything…

Ken Taylor
…except your intelligence. I’m Ken Taylor. And we’re asking, how relevant is Jesus?

John Perry
Our guest is Andrew Fiala author of “What Would Jesus Really Do?”

Ken Taylor
So Andrew, let’s talk about this golden rule. Why should we do unto others what we would have them do unto us unless we know in advance that they enjoy being done unto in the same way that we do? I’ll give you an example from my, my, my ethics Professor back at the University of Chicago, he refuted the golden rule. He said, Look, I’m a dirty old man, let’s pretend. And there’s a sweet young thing there. And I would like to jump into her bed, does that mean she should jump into my bed? Because do you want to others as you would have them do unto you, so that he refuted the golden rule? What do you think?

Andrew Fiala
I mean, the golden rule, it’s found in many traditions around the world. And I think what it is, is it’s kind of a stage of moral education that, you know, we start out, at least the standard story says, we start out as egoist that we’re really concerned with ourselves. And at some point, your grandmother or someone remind you that you should take into account other people. And that’s really what that’s what the golden rule is asking us to do is to consider things from the other person’s perspective. It’s really complicated about how you apply it. And I would argue, you have to kind of go a little bit farther, you have to talk about human rights and inherent dignity and all this other stuff that the philosophical tradition teaches us. But nonetheless, you know, it is important to start a out with that altruistic—

Ken Taylor
It’s a good rule of thumb.

John Perry
But some people thought it was a lot more. I mean, Kant said that all of morality came to treat the categorical imperative, one version of which was treat others, not merely as means, but also as ends. And a lot of people said, that’s really the golden rule. How about it?

Andrew Fiala
Well, what’s interesting to me in the history of philosophy is that both content, John Stuart Mill thought that they were doing the golden rule. And if you study a little bit of philosophy, you know that their moral theories are supposed to be kind of houses. Oh, yes. Right, exactly. So they both look back to Jesus as inspiration for their idea. Kant, you know, as you’ve mentioned, says that loving your neighbor as yourself means respecting their dignity, you know, respecting their humanity, mill, the utilitarian says that what we really want to do is promote the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. And like almost word for word mill says, and that’s exactly the ethics of Jesus, right?

Ken Taylor
Right. But mill also claimed that Kant was utilitarian, you know, he thinks everybody’s utilitarian. So I want to think about the relationship between suppose we take the Bible, not to be just a set of suggestions or thoughts, but let’s pretend they’ve or let’s believe that it’s revealed truth. And then there’s human reason thinking through these things. What might we understand as the relationship between this revealed moral truth and human reason? I mean, because obviously the Bible is not a like a detailed code. So what’s the job? Even if you think it’s the revealed truth, you can still you still have to say something about the job of reason.

Andrew Fiala
Yeah, you mean you have to interpret right? So even if you had the Prophet right here talking to us, different people are gonna hear different things come out of his mouth, we know that right people listen differently and attend to ideas in different ways. And then you need to do a little philosophizing, both, you know, in your own mind, you know, interrogate what you’ve heard, and also in a community. And actually, that’s one of the things that I like about the Jesus. You know, going back to Jesus as a model is that there is this kind of communal interrogation, Jesus was involved in re examining and debating the ideas of the Hebrew tradition.

Ken Taylor
So what Jesus would really do is philosophy! So we got some more questions from our live audience. Well, welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Joshua
Hi, I’m Joshua Stein from CSU Fresno. I, my question is kind of complicated, but But essentially, does does the expectation of miracles, the notion that Jesus healed the sick? And does that create does or justify at least an abstinence from modern medicine?

Andrew Fiala
Well, you know, I in the chapter on euthanasia, I talk about this that that’s a complicated topic, euthanasia. But one of the things if you look back to Jesus as the model as the healer, He restores people to full health, right. So when Lazarus is brought back from the dead, or Jairus, his daughters brought back, they’re healthy. And modern medicine often doesn’t do that. So, I mean, often, you know, you bring people back, and then it’s just a long, slow slide until they’re dead again, unfortunately. So I mean, the miracle stories. Again, part of that is it’s trying to establish Jesus’s authority. Right, but we’re not miracle workers, right? Even our best doctors.

Ken Taylor
Right, exactly. But wouldn’t it be a bizarre entrance thing? Okay, Jesus performed miracles. I’m sick. Therefore, I should pray that Jesus performed a miracle, or something, instead of taking the using the best that would be a bizarre.

John Perry
It’s the “instead of” that’s the tricky part. I think, you know, Jesus performed miracles. In some cases, he’s probably won’t perform unless somebody prays. So I better pray. Because he’ll do a better job he’ll he’ll he’ll restore me or whoever I’m worried about. But you still don’t get but don’t in the meantime, give him medicine, or bed rest or an aspirin.

Ken Taylor
Let’s take another question from this side of room.

Michael
Thank you. My name is Michael Gabriel. I’m from Visalia,

Ken Taylor
Michael Gabriel, that’s a good name.

Michael
I’m an angel. And I think we all love philosophy. That’s why we’re here. But instead of doing mental extrapolations, why don’t we just ask Jesus what he would want for our lives?

Ken Taylor
That’s a good one.

Andrew Fiala
Well actually, you know, earlier I talked about the students that write exam question responses. Well, Jesus says, We should be opposed to gay marriage or something. There is this tradition that says that it’s like direct communication, right? Kierkegaard kind of goes in this direction, that you know, you make this leap of faith, and it’s personal transformation. Of course, that’s a really tricky prospect. Because then what do you do about the text?

Ken Taylor
And not only do you make this leap of faith, but God said to Abraham, take Isaac and and kill him, right? Of course, he gave him back. He didn’t have to kill I mean, he was going to do it. But you know, at the last minute, something miraculous happened. But Kierkegaard thinks that to say, look, what did God command? God, the ethical, he says, there’s two names for what what Abraham was prepared to do. The ethical name was murder, Isaac, God commanded Abraham to murder Isaac, the religious name is sacrifice, Isaac, and these two things are can’t be put together. I mean, reason, is astounded by what God commands.

John Perry
So before we give you a chance to rebut, but I’ll put in my two cents. To me, the question is, you may be talking to Jesus, but you may be hearing a lot of voices. Which one is Jesus? And you need your reason. You need some other compass point Andrew makes again and again, book to decide which of these voices to listen to.

Andrew Fiala
Yeah, well, I mean, the same problem comes up in the Greek tradition. And I talked in the book about Plato’s dialogue with Euthyphro and Euthyphro, a young man who thinks that he should go and prosecute his father for a crime. And Socrates says, Why do you think that? And Socrates wants to again, do that kind of reasoned discourse and try to puzzle through about justice and what people deserve? And but often at the I mean, at the end of the Euthyphro, what happens is Euthyphro just walks away and says, I don’t need that philosopher.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, but Kierkegaard interpretation of the Abraham story is that reason, faith has an authority, because through faith, you’re in contact with the divine directly. That reason cannot challenge and if Faith tells you to do if God commands you to sacrifice Isaac and reason says, but that would be murder. The person of faith is the guy who lets faith went out over reason.

John Perry
How about the roommate is a person of faith. A person of faith says God tells me to kill you and you What would you say? You’d say, Well, wait a minute. How do you know it’s God telling you?

Ken Taylor
Another question from this side.

Anthony
Good evening, my name is Anthony Thomas. I’m from Fresno, and I don’t have a I don’t have a question. I have a comment. I don’t think that Jesus actually would have anything to do with America. Based on her her political structure, socio economic structure. My view is that America is primarily created in slavery, suffering and death. And that doesn’t represent the historical Jesus that I’ve come to know.

John Perry
Well, that’s a lighthearted point. A lot of validity in it.

Andrew Fiala
Yeah. Well, I mean, I do talk about this in the book that, you know, Jesus’s world, the ancient world was a hierarchical civilization. Women were subordinated slavery was accepted. There was no, you know, democratic or human rights tradition. In that sense, I think we’ve come a long way. Not everyone thinks that that’s progress. But you know, and a lot of that progress happened from people trying to reinterpret the Christian definitely, but also against the Christian texts, because the, you know, the church was stuck in, its hierarchical structure.

Ken Taylor
Here’s a problem with Jesus. Everybody wants Jesus on his or her side, everybody wants to claim Jesus, as mine. See, here’s the revealed truth. And what I want to happen is in there, right, I have this taste for gays, and it’s in there, or I have this, whatever, and it’s in there. And everybody wants to claim this authority as a as sanctifying their way of thinking about it.

John Perry
So it’s often criticized against religion and Christianity in particular that you find on both sides of the big battles like slavery, and so forth and so on. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean that those battles didn’t have a dialectic and that once in this slavery case, I think the people using Christianity for slavery were in in hidden Turnley given up by the time of the Civil War, those weren’t the arguments they were using anymore. So everyone may claim Jesus, but it’s not clear that Jesus ends up helping everyone. That’s my pious view.

Andrew Fiala
Yeah, can I just say something about the strength of the conviction that people have? I’d much rather have discussion and an ethics class with someone that’s convinced about something, then the kind of, you know, 19 year old relativist says, Who cares? Does it really matter? Anything goes? I mean, that’s in a way why I wrote this book, again, is that I really wanted to have this dialogue with my Christian students to let me let’s really talk about it. And relativism, I think, is this other problem that’s kind of—

Ken Taylor
Right, so relativism on the one hand and a sort of, I don’t know what to call it. authoritarianism on the other that says the answers are already there. And we don’t have to think those are twin evils of our time. Yeah, I think so. Well, on that note, I’m gonna thank you for joining us, Andrew, it’s been a really interesting conversation.

Andrew Fiala
Thank you. Glad to be here.

Ken Taylor
Our guest has been Andrew Fiala. He’s professor of philosophy at CSC at Cal State University Fresno, where he’s also director of the Ethics Center. And He’s author of “What Would Jesus Really Do: The Power and Limits of Jesus’s Moral Teachings,” a very fine book.

John Perry
And we also want to thank everyone here at the College of the Sequoias for participating in the program, give yourselves a round of applause.

Ken Taylor
So, John, you got any last thoughts you want to share with?

John Perry
I want to go back to the question the person asked about the various religious leaders because Socrates and Jesus and Buddha, I find them all in a way very irritating. I mean, if I was a Jew, at the time, I would have said, We need someone to, to correct our I would have thought someone like Muhammad would come along and say, this is the way it should be. And let’s make it that way. I think that’s, you know, I think Jesus is a great, great ethical teacher, I was raised on the teachings of Jesus, I feel that Jesus’s teachings really tell me a lot of times not exactly what to do, but they clarify things a lot. But still, I know what the world needs is somebody who will take the world by the cover of his shirt and say, This is what we should be working on thing, not money. Not, you know…

Ken Taylor
But John, see, I don’t think you’re giving an I think Andrew is under something deep when he said that Jesus exemplifies certain virtues, and what does the virtuous person do it and he invites you to live a certain kind of life doesn’t articulate here are the rules in fine print of everything you’re supposed to do of every decision, but be a certain kind of person relate to the world in a certain kind of way. And Socrates and Jesus and other and Gandhi, they invite us to a kind of life rather than to a set of doctrines and I think that’s important.

John Perry
But Gandhi became prime minister and took you know, positions and move people in all kinds of detailed issues. Well, he didn’t die at 33 the way Jesus did.

Ken Taylor
On that note, I’ll say this conversation will continue as always on our blog, the blog dot Philosophy Talk dot O R G where our motto is Cogito Ergo Blago—I think, therefore I blog. And we also have an ever growing Facebook page and go check out our Facebook. If you waste time on Facebook go waste time on our Facebook page.

John Perry
Now we spent a lot of time asking you what Jesus would really do and what Jesus would really say. Let’s turn to the really interesting question: what would Ian Shoales really say and do?

Ian Shoales
Ian Shoales… Christianity has taken some strange twists over the years some Christians desire prosperity, some turn their backs on worldly things, some actively engaged in the secular world some create their own version of it. Some might claim that America was founded as a Christian nation, but which Christians in the 1630s and Hutchison said that only two ministers in the Bay Colony were walking in a covenant of grace. The others preached a covenant of works, what she considered popish. She was accused of being deluded by the devil and expelled her doctrine of salvation by faith hold that we are all fallen and sinful and capable of saving ourselves. You can’t get salvation by giving pennies to the poor, or works only from faith in Jesus. That doctrine has also taken some turns over the years a church in Washington DC called the C suite center got some attention recently, run by the family. What the media likes to call a secretive and powerful organization. The center is home away from home to all kinds of folks among them Nevada Senator John Ensign, other members of Congress who also frequented C Street were not only aware of an extramarital affair Ensign was having the Approve the idea of a payoff to his mistress and her family. The family has prayer breakfasts over flapjacks and tepid coffee. The family has curried favor with folks like Indonesia Suharto, and Nicaragua Somoza, who is the leader of the family he apparently told friends the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy with dictators. South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford in his public semi apology for his affair mentioned that he had received counseling and C Street he told reporters quote, what I find interesting is the story of David and the way in which he fell mightily fell under a very significant ways, but then picked up the pieces and built from there, unquote. Why King David Well, reporter Jeff Charlotte wrote a book called The Family and as he recalls that Doug COE was talking one day at sea Street and said, quote, what would you say made king David a good guy. Here’s this guy who suffered and then the man’s wife, Bathsheba, right, and then basically murdered her husband. And this guy is one of our heroes. I mean, Jiminy Christmas. God likes this guy. What is that all about? Unquote. The answer it turns out is that King David was chosen. Author Jeff Shaw, I believe is the doctrine of the street center to be one of predestination. Once you walk through the doors boom, Jesus has touched you with the glory stick. Not only that Jesus wants you to prosper in this world as well. Contrast that with fallen evangelical leaders over the years, but they James Hargis was brought down when accused of having sex with students at his American Christian College, Jimmy Swaggart helped bring down Jim Baker for his infidelity then was caught with a prostitute himself. There was Robert Tilton, whose ministry threw away prayer requests unread and pocketed the money. Ted Haggard accused of doing math with a male prostitute resigned as pastor of the giant New Life church and Colorado Springs. This year, Tony Alonso was convicted of 10 counts of transporting minors across state lines for sexual purposes and sexual assault. He will be 250 years old when he gets out of prison, which I guess is young and old testament terms. Clearly most Christian leaders when discovered in sin face contrition jail sensor mockery and oblivion, but not if you’re one of the sea center chosen. Well, not being a church going, Man, I guess I don’t care if a family man or a dictator sits down to breakfast with me. I don’t ask for moral credentials. I just asked him to pass the biscuits. But stay the hell on your side of the table. Don’t ask me to pray with you. And please, please, please leave the women and children alone. I gotta go.

John Perry
Philosophy Talk is a presentation of Ben Manilla productions and the trustees of Leland Stanford Junior University, copyright 2009.

Ken Taylor
Our executive producer is David Demarest.

John Perry
Special thanks to Christian Anderson, the Norman Lavonne Center for the Humanities, the Keighley Institute of Ethics, and the Visalia breakfast Rotary, and the Arts & Lecture Series at the College of the Sequoias.

Ken Taylor
And thanks to Andy Boarder, Steve Renton, Corrie Goldman, Merle Kessler, and Molly Samuel.

John Perry
Our production coordinator is Devon Strolovitch. Daniel Elstein annd Ben Hirsch are Directors of Research. Lael Weiss is our webmaster.

Ken Taylor
Support for Philosophy Talk comes from various groups at Stanford University, and the Friends of Philosophy Talk.

John Perry
And from the members of KALW local public radio San Francisco, where our program originates.

Ken Taylor
The views expressed (or mis-expressed) on this program do not necessarily represent the opinions of Stanford University or of our other funders.

John Perry
The conversation continues on our website philosophytalk.org. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Thank you for listening.

John Perry
And thank you for thanking.