Confucius

Ken Taylor
Welcome to Philosophy Talk the program that questions everything…

John Perry
…except your intelligence. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
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John Perry
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Ken Taylor
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John Perry
Ken, today, we’re talking about Confucius, one of the great thinkers, one of the most influential thinkers of all time, but someone that you and I probably didn’t study in graduate school to the extent we did Descartes, Plato or Aristotle.

Ken Taylor
That’s true. Confucius is not a part of the sort of standard Western canon but you know, I did study Confucius as an undergraduate at Notre Dame and that great books Great Books program, I got my degree in a little bit, at least just a tiny bit, but I don’t claim to be any expert.

John Perry
Good for you and good for Notre Dame. I used to give a lecture on benches, but I’m afraid I never learned much more than we had to to make it through one lecture. Now, who is Mencius? Mencius was not a student of Confucius a couple of generations away but one of the great exponents of his point of view.

Ken Taylor
So tell me what what’s what’s the big deal. Tell me who Confucius was to begin with?

John Perry
Well, Confucius was a sixth century resident of China, apparently descended from some nobility but himself not wealthy and I guess an illegitimate son of somebody. sixth century that sixth century BCE, right, yes, sixth century BCE, right. Born I think 550 lived to a ripe old age never seems to have had a steady job wanted a little bit like Machiavelli, I guess he hung around hoping to get a job as a sort of a Secretary of State or Secretary of the Interior or the with these various kings, but never really did. But he became known as a great man and a great teacher kings like to be seen with him. They just didn’t like to listen to it.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. So I mean, what was he trying to tell these kings? What What was it? What were some of his main ideas as far as you can?

John Perry
Well, if you if you said, the main ideas of our civilization are those in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, you’d say the main ideas of Confucianism are contrast quite a bit with that they’re not individualistic, that’s more like filial piety, order, education, ritual devotion to the state, those those seem to be the things that Confucius thought were the key not just to good government, but good life.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, he had this view that if everything is well ordered in the individual, then everything will be well ordered in a family and a family is a part of a community, everything will be well ordered in the community, the community is well ordered, the king will be well ordered. And then it goes back the other way. If the kings will order the individual, the family, the community will be well ordered. And then families will be well ordered. And then the individual will be well ordered. It’s all this great chain of well ordered this, that you can’t, you know, you can’t isolate any part of it from the other.

John Perry
Well, it may not be too appealing to your average libertine democratic American but apparently influenced great influence over centuries and centuries of Chinese civilization, I guess right up until today.

Ken Taylor
Well, that’s true. And and it’s not just a historical thing. If you look at the Chinese, not just China, but the Chinese diaspora. It spread throughout the world in a way and our Roving Philosophical Reporter, Amy Standen, looked into that. She files this report.

Carolyn
When we talk about Confucius, we’re talking about a philosopher who died almost 2500 years ago, a man whose life we know very little about. Which is why it’s amazing how much influence is still felt today.

JeeLoo Liu
Chinese culture and Chinese society is so much a Confucian society.

Carolyn
JeeLoo Liu is a visiting professor of philosophy at Cal State Fullerton,

JeeLoo Liu
Even though people may not know this is Confucius teaching. Even though they are not following his teachings or listening to the doctrine, the way they interact with each other is all prescribed by Confucius/

Carolyn
Confucius laid out a prescription for how a person should live his or her life. It’s not about happiness or self fulfillment. It’s about humility, respect for one’s elders and education.

JeeLoo Liu
No, in the traditional society, parents have absolute authority, and children have to just obey. There’ll be no consideration of nursing home or no abandoning the parents. And that’s a lifelong commitment. I was brought up in that kind of atmosphere even though my parents did not study Confucianism, but there’s always this kind of implicit idea that to study means to never give up your effort to always strive at your best. And there is a Chinese saying that learning is like rowing a boat upstream. So whenever you stop, you’re going backwards. So you can relax. Now you can take breaks, you just always need to go to the next step.

Him Mark Lai
I find it difficult to boast about myself. Most Americans don’t have any problem there.

Carolyn
Him Mark Lai grew up in San Francisco’s Chinatown. His first name, him means modesty. When he was a boy, Him’s father taught him Confucian proverbs.

Him Mark Lai
Well, one of the things I remember is that I should everyday examine myself, am I true to others? Am I, you know, honest, and the I think the main thing that I get for confusion, philosophy is don’t go to extremes. And of course, you know, that is very, very contrary to American western philosophy to which you got to be a winner. You don’t compromise. You know, I think the thing is, the Chinese The family also gets into the act, to do well in education and do well in life also reflects on our family and family to pitch in to help so that together, even though individually, they were not big enough, but together, there’s enough that they can get an education and be successful. So I think the family part is different from American ethos.

Carolyn
The Confucian concept of a moral person is in a lot of ways the traditional Chinese concept of a moral person. I asked JeeLoo to describe what that life is like.

JeeLoo Liu
Internally, he will be constantly examining himself, he will always ask himself whether he is doing his best, whether he is putting up his best effort, whether whether he is being honest with his friends, whether he is dutiful, whether he is proper in all different social context. He is someone who is kind of careful in self examination. So there were stories about Confucius, for example, if he walked by a funeral procession, you know, he would just change his appearance, he would show respect, they would not be laughing or talking out loud, when other people are engaged in something serious. So he’s always observant of what’s going on around him. The conclusion tradition is not your self. Now that’s being selfish because there’s no self outside of a family or society network. So yourself is defined in terms of how you can contribute to the family, and how you can contribute to society.

Carolyn
For Philosophy Talk, this is Amy Standen.

John Perry
Thanks, Amy, for that very interesting piece. You know, humility, respect for elders education. Those are things that I really value, I could get behind—particularly that respect for elders. As you get older, you appreciate some values more and more. Yeah, that’s definitely one of them.

Ken Taylor
Well John, I bow to you, my elder, and I defer to you.

John Perry
Don’t bump your head.

Ken Taylor
Well, let’s let’s bring our guest on. We’re joined today by Paul Kjellberg. He’s a professor of philosophy at Whittier College. He studied at the Donghai, a university in Taiwan, and also at the University of Hawaii before completing his PhD down at Stanford, our place of work. That was a while ago. He’s the editor of “Essays on Skepticism, Relativism, and Ethics in the Zhuangzi.” Paul, welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Paul Kjellberg
Hi Ken, Hi John.

John Perry
Hi Paul, welcome to Philosophy Talk. Let me ask you this. We’ve all heard of Confucius. But most of us in the context of saying saying little pithy sayings, like Confucius said, Who would ever want to leave a house except by the door? No, that’s very deep. And you can, you know, think about that for a long time. But is there really a systematic philosophical vision underlying all these things? I mean, tell us a little bit about it.

Paul Kjellberg
I think there is certainly a systematic vision, and it was articulated differently by different ones of Confucius as followers. And we can try and triangulate back a little bit on what the original vision probably was. As you mentioned earlier, he didn’t leave any writings himself, his disciples after he died, realized that they were losing sight of him. And they got together a few times to write down with work for them than more memorable things that he said. But even then they were only thinking about remembering these things for themselves. They weren’t thinking about laying the vision out for us 1000s of years and a whole continents away. So it is it is difficult to piece together and it takes some work. But some of the central ideas, I think you’ve already touched on the important role of study. And Confucius really is the patron saint of study in China. The role of study both in showing you how to fulfill your role and how to do the right thing, but also in learning to see yourself as part of a larger community in a larger society.

John Perry
So it’s this idea that I believe JeeLoo, and in the Roving Philosophical Report said, that no, no self outside of a family, no family outside of a state, something like that, that imbues the whole philosophy there.

Paul Kjellberg
Confucius lived at a time what was called poetically the spring and autumn it was the decline of the Jo dynasty and it later became more frankly referred to as the Warring States and he found this disintegration. deplorable. So he was trying to to avoid it. And part of the role of study because they did have a common tradition that all the different states which were in increasing competition, they shared one common tradition. So by immersing yourself in this tradition, you were more able to see yourself as on the same side as all the other people.

Ken Taylor
So wait, maybe that’s an interesting thing. I just want to say he lived at a time of sort of dissolution, right? Yes, the warring factions. So this talk about well ordered families and well ordered societies and all that, that was an ideal that wasn’t present at the time he was thinking and writing. But he was harkening back to some golden age or something like that, is that the right way to think that’s right.

Unknown Speaker
And that’s why study is so important. This is something we have to strive hard to achieve. One important word, as I said, is shear at study, but it might be useful to link it to another important word, which is, Jen. Traditionally, Jen is translated as benevolence or sometimes more broadly, as goodness. But I think for our purposes, we can understand that as kindness. And the Analects 1.2 says that the family is the root of kindness, because it’s in the family that we learn to see other people as of a kind with ourselves and their happiness as part of our happiness and their success as part of our success. And part of the function of education is to take that natural kindness that we feel in the family, and extend it until it embraces others in our society, and potentially even the whole world.

John Perry
Paul, one what I did at one time, spent a little time on Mencius and I remember he had quite a he thought human beings were basically good if I remember it, and that this was something he got from Confucius, although it was a little bit more complex, and Confucius and other people thought he had the wrong interpretation. But it sounds like he thinks there is this basic kindness in human beings and education will develop it. And that’s kind of the secret of getting everything off to a good start. So it’s not sort of Original Sin and guilt type philosophy. But original kindness and education type philosophies. Is that right?

Unknown Speaker
For Mencius. He was the first great follower of Confucius, who as you mentioned earlier studied with Confucius his grandson, he said he’s famous for saying it and Shang Shan people are by nature good meaning that kindness is incipient in us and education just develops this natural inclination. Shortly after him was another important thinker, shinza, who is famous for saying wrenching, people are by nature bad, by which he did not mean original sin, or I think the way we understand it. But that kindness isn’t something isn’t a natural inclination that we have. But it’s a second nature that we can acquire by virtue of study and discipline. So for both of them, study plays a very important role. The question is just whether somebody is bringing out an incipient inner nature or acquiring a second nature.

Ken Taylor
That debate between them. Was that a debate about sort of how people are it was at a debate about the right way to interpret the great master. I mean, with this, I mean, in some ways, you can say, well, who cares what Confucius said, but I take it they both thought of themselves as interpreting Confucius somehow was that right?

Unknown Speaker
To some degree, but that was less important to them that they were all itinerant political advisors and teachers, counseling people on how to rule and and teaching students how to counsel people on how to rule. So the real question is, which theory is more effective in governing?

Ken Taylor
Yeah, you’re listening to Philosophy Talk. Our subject is the great Asian philosopher Confucius and the philosophical tradition he founded. Our guest is Paul Kjellberg from Whittier College.

John Perry
We’ve been learning about Confucius, who he was, the nature of his influence over ancient Chinese culture. Coming up, we’ll look at the main tenants of Confucian ethical and political philosophy.

Ken Taylor
And we want you to join us. We’ll take your calls after the break. Philosophy Talk will be right back.

John Perry
That instrumental piece was an embroidered purse it was performed on a traditional Chinese instrument called the struck zither. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. We’re discussing Confucius and Confucianism. Join us.

John Perry
The number is 415-841-4134. I’ll repeat: 415-841-4134. Outside the Bay Area toll free 1-800-525-9917 or email us at comments@philosophytalk.org.

Ken Taylor
And when you do tell us your views on Confucian ideals. Is service, filial piety, and that sort of thing a better guide to life than such traditional Western American values are as individualism, liberty, the pursuit of happiness? Tell us what you think.

John Perry
Our guest is Paul Kjellberg from Whittier College. Paul as I read about Confucianism, ritual seems to play a very major role in Confucian philosophy reminds me of when I read the Old Testament, Deuteronomy, all this endless stuff about ritual that doesn’t resonate to the American consciousness today, can you tell us a little bit more about ritual and why it was so important?

Unknown Speaker
Actually, I think a lot of that is a translation problem. The word translated is ritual, Lee did refer to very specific things like you know, how you fold your robe and things like that, and also very large things like the conducting of state ceremonies. But it also referred to what time of year you plant your crops, how to conduct yourself in certain kinds of offices, what you should do, if you’re a doctor, what you should do, if you’re a governor, what you should do if you’re a police chief, one thing that’s true is that knowledge wasn’t categorized, then by academic disciplines the same way that it was for us now. So that there was this body of traditional literature known as the ritual, which contained the collected wisdom of previous generations. And it through the study of it, one learned how to take one’s place in society how to how to play on the team. And for us, it’s very easy to distinguish rituals, which we think of is arbitrary or somewhat frivolous from things like science. But at that time, they were those things were sort of mixed together.

John Perry
So ritual is just one aspect of Lee, which might mean propriety or good manners or doing anything carefully and the way it ought to be done. Is that it?

Unknown Speaker
Yes, Confucius said, in analytics 720. He said, I was not born with knowledge, but I love the past and look for it there. I think that Lee, it really includes almost anything that you have to study in order to know,

Ken Taylor
Give us a call, join our discussion. 415-841-4134. That’s 415-841-4134. Or if you’re outside the Bay Area, you can call us toll free at 1-800-525-9917. Okay, Paul, I want to ask you more about this though, this ritual thing. So ritual includes what we would think of as ritual, I guess, and more than that, right? But for Confucius, as I read it, and understand it, and tell me if I’m right, it’s a deeply ethically significant notion that disruption of ritual.

Unknown Speaker
Actually, the way the word just kind of grammatical level, the way the words function is ritual is what you study, in, like in English, you eat food, and Confucius is Chinese, surely. So it’s all the things that need to be studied in order to be learned. And the idea, again, is that being a part of the human family, being a playing on the human team is what it is that we learn.

Ken Taylor
Okay, but okay, but help me, I understand that, but I still want to understand how we think so if you think of ethics, and kind of the Western tradition, has some overlap with Confucian ethics, because both ancient Greek ethics and ancient Chinese ethics seem at least as I understand them, to focus a lot on virtue rather than moral rules, right. But, but But all this stuff about mourning for three years, and you know, if your heart’s not in there ritual, Confucius says, then, then I’d rather not be there. He talks about, you know, if a sacrifice, can’t remember the exact quote, but there’s this, if you’re at a sacrifice, and your heart’s not in it, I’d rather not be there. I mean, he goes on and on about this sort of stuff. But that’s supposed to be part of sort of goodness, and being a good person helped me think, get my help me get my head into that.

Unknown Speaker
These rituals were places where the community came together, and the community came together around things that were important to them. And frequently, you know, something like a funeral when someone dies is very challenging to the community. And it’s important there as I think it is for us now for families to get together around funerals and to think about their relations to one another. Confucius was also very, very fond of music when when communities came together for concerts, which were funded by the the whole community. And certainly those for him were the kinds of community efforts that were most beautiful and meaningful, as opposed to say, military expeditions.

John Perry
It’s kind of evocative of how we think of small town America, people coming together for the Fourth of July celebration and, and the playing of the Star Spangled Banner before the local ballclub and things like that. We lose a lot of that in our decentralized society where we all listen to the Star Spangled Banner, but we’re sitting in our separate couches and watching it on TV. Still, ritual just doesn’t seem to be as important to us as it was to ancient Chinese.

Ken Taylor
But if you think of ritual, I think Paul’s saying I’m not sure I’ve got your right Paul. If you think of ritual as a way of organizing our shared life together, a way of organizing our interactions together, you can see how it could be a deeply ethically significant notion and respecting the old ritual forms is living up to the old virtues and values in a certain way. Do I have that right Paul at all?

Paul Kjellberg
It probably doesn’t play the same role in our lives as it didn’t there’s but it probably plays more of a role. In our lives than we realize, take, for instance, something like Thanksgiving is a ritual families come together. And it’s nice that we have these rituals, or we come together just to come together rather than for some other function like cleaning out the garage. Those those rituals do play an important part of our lives. Or to take another one. Think about that first baseball game after 911. That was an important ritual in everyone’s mind. And it was just a game.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, Pablo in San Francisco wants to weigh in on this point about ritual, I think Welcome to Philosophy Talk about love.

Pablo
Yes, but can I ask you a quick question first, and that is, what is it more? Or what is the standard? or what have you accepted term? Is it Confucianism or Confucianism? I’ve heard both. And then the second point is my take on this point that you’re discussing, right. The second is that, you know, in fact, we have many rituals, you know, I regret to, you know, sort of throw out the concept of the Super Bowl, you know, but we have many of these things. They may be, you know, fragmented as you’re saying or decentralized, but they may also still serve a very similar function. So that’s my thoughts.

John Perry
Thanks, Pablo. Thanks. Interesting points.

Ken Taylor
You got an answer to his question about the correct—

Unknown Speaker
First of all, yet Confucianism is the usual one, although some people might coined a different one if they’re trying to make a distinction between Confucianism in theory, or Confucianism as it’s practiced, or things like that, because the Confucian tradition is so huge, and it’s very complex. And just as in the Western tradition, there are many many different schools of philosophy which bear little in common with one another, or Socrates. Within Confucianism, there are an awful lot of different kinds of things that you could talk about which bear more or less in relation to Confucius himself.

Ken Taylor
Speaking of different schools of philosophy, Will in Alameda has a question about different schools of Chinese philosophy. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Will.

Will
Yeah, I was wondering how Confucianism relates to Taoism, if they were separate traditions kind of opposite trends, or if they were, if Confucianism is derived from Taoism. And if we have parallels in Western philosophers say, mystical tradition, like Thoreau or Emerson versus more pragmatic philosophy, like William James, or Thomas Dewey, or something like that.

John Perry
Confucianism certainly seems much more affirming of the process of daily life and optimistic than Taoism. But let’s let Paul our experts weigh in here.

Unknown Speaker
That’s a very tough question. Confucius lived in a period that is known in retrospect as the age of 100 philosophers. So there were a lot of different thinkers around sounds Gray, and in many ways, there was also again called the Warring States, so it had its downside. And they were later classified into schools in the Han Dynasty several centuries later. So a historian named Suma chin was the one who came up with the term Tao Zhao, or Taoism as opposed to Confucianism. So it’s difficult for us to tell how those thinkers thought of themselves, we don’t even really know if they how aware they were of one another. Later on, by the end of the period, you can tell they’ve read each other’s texts and responding to them. But in the middle, it’s it’s a little bit hard to say. And those Taoist texts are so weird. And the more you learn about them, the weirder they get, it’s hard to tell.

Ken Taylor
Give me a taste of the weirdness of those texts. When you say that that’s a provocative thing. Give me a taste of the weirdness. What are you referring to?

John Perry
Well, there’s all this stuff about the way but what’s the way?

Unknown Speaker
Well in Zhuangzi, for example, who is probably most familiar to Western readers, as the guy who dreamt he was a butterfly and then didn’t woke up and wasn’t sure if he was a butterfly dreaming is a man or a man who was dreaming, he was a butterfly. He tells all these strange stories in it, which frequently have Confucius figuring in them, and sometimes is Confucius has been ridiculed. Sometimes he’s been made kind of a strict a straightforward spokesperson of Taoism, sometimes I think probably most significantly, he’s being shown as someone who changes his mind, and who learns. And Confucius himself talks about how he learned his whole life. And DRONGO says, Confucius has been going along for 60 years and has changed his mind for 60 times. How do I know that what he believes today, he won’t change his mind about tomorrow. Which is an interesting comment, because you’re not sure whether it’s a criticism or, or an honorific. And then there’s one other really, really weird one where Confucius says, another important ritual, getting back to Pablos question, other kinds of rituals, their, you know, rituals like games where people come together, their political rituals, like, you know, for us, the President is the only one who has the flags on his limousine and has the song when and if Arnold had them play, you know, Hail to the Chief when he came in would be very upset. And for so for Confucius, all these kinds of rituals are important for keeping society stable and the most important ritual is language. Because after all, language There’s just something we learn. You don’t you don’t you’re not born knowing how to speak. And that language is probably the most fundamental way in which we come together as a community. And yet in the Taoist texts trongsa has Confucius saying, I’ve heard of the way that is unspoken, but I’ve never tried to speak it. I wish I had a beak three feet long.

Ken Taylor
I don’t know what to make of that. Tony’s question? I think it was Tony’s question—Will’s question, that prompted an interesting discussion. It’s a big topic, the whole history of Chinese philosophy, we’ll put some resources on our blog that will help you sort through some of this. But I want to ask you something, Paul, really quickly. This focus on ritual, I don’t think we should overemphasize it in a certain way. It’s not the mere form that matter to Confucius. Right, as I understand you had to perform these rituals sincerely. And this insert the underlying sincerity was was the deep and important thing, isn’t that right?

Unknown Speaker
That’s right. Although there’s a continuum between sincerity and performance. I think that our in our tradition, the notion of the value of kind of religious value of intent is something that is between you and your God is absent from the Chinese tradition. One way to think about it might be this. Confucius was talking primarily to political leaders who were concerned, first and foremost with millet with political conquest. And Confucius told them that it’s important not just to go through the motions of caring for all the people under your under your responsibility, but also actually following through and really caring for them. And Confucius believed that someone who really cared about them would ultimately be more effective than someone who just pretended to care about them.

John Perry
Okay, thanks for that, Paul. You’re listening to Philosophy Talk, you can call in join the conversation. 415-841-4134. That’s 415-841-4134 we’re talking to Paul Kjellberg about Confucius. Paul. Let me just ask a couple of practical questions. Now. I went to my shelf and I pulled down the Analects of Confucius, translated and annotated by Arthur Whaley, which one time costs 95 cents? I’m sure it costs a lot more now, but it’s a inexpensive paperback. Is that a good addition of the Analects? Or is there another one you’d recommend to our listeners?

Paul Kjellberg
Oh, my goodness, there are numerous editions of the Analects probably the best thing to do is to get a couple of them and compare them.

John Perry
Well, that’s pretty ambitious. How about somebody who just wants to have one to read every so often?

Paul Kjellberg
You’re putting me on the spot?

Ken Taylor
Well, let me give you another one here that readily doesn’t want to offend all the editors and translators out there.

John Perry
This is a book that’s got a lot more than the Analects in it. It’s the wisdom of Confucius by Lin Yu Tang, and it’s one of those modern library books that are fairly inexpensive.

Unknown Speaker
Lindy Tang is a very, very interesting figure in his own right. Uh, one of the things you learn when you read this stuff seriously, as an academic, is you can’t just read the original text, you read the commentaries, because Chinese, it’s the same Chinese now as it was then. But it’s changed. The words have taken on different meanings grammatical structures have changed. So as you read over the years, you have these commentators explaining the text for you. And one thing that you realize is the text is viewed through a huge variety of lenses. And we talked before about Mencius, seeing Confucius as someone who thought that education was a process of bringing out our natural tendencies, as opposed to shinza who thought that education was a process of getting a second nature. Well, then you begin to get Buddhist readers and all different kinds of readers and they see the Analects very differently. And it becomes very difficult to say which one is the right vision.

John Perry
Let me tell you a little story about that. The Great South American writer Borges was at one time interested in being a psychologist. And he writes his following he says, I came across a memorable passage. This is from coot Confucius, and the passage was it matters little to a convict under a death sentence if he has to walk on the edge of a precipice. But then there was a footnote and a footnote said the translator said the alternative translation of this is the servants destroy the works of art. So it’s not to have to adjudicate on their merits and defects. Well, now, I mean, those I mean, do we really have any idea what these people were saying?

Unknown Speaker
Well, I think that examples a little fictional, because actually, the quote is from Guangzhou, not Confucius. But it’s true, but you’re right. What can you say? It’s poor haste. That’s, that’s understandable. But But as with almost any language, there, it’s open to a variety of readings, not an infinite variety. And you make your reading based on evidence, and some of it is grammatical, textual evidence, other historical evidence of the kinds of thing people were concerned about at the time. So for example, we’ve referred a few times to the fact that Confucius was giving practical political advice to Kings. That’s a very, very different thing from a contemporary philosophers who’s trying to get his paper published in Jay Phil. So let affect the way he writes.

Ken Taylor
Paul, let’s get some callers into this conversation. Carolyn in Berkeley is on the line. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Carolyn.

Carolyn
Hi, how are you?

Ken Taylor
Okay, what’s your question or comment?

Carolyn
Yeah, I was curious about Confucius his relationship with the females in his family. And if you knew anything about what that relationship was, like, with his wife, or if he had any daughters, and how possibly his wife influenced some of his thinking, and another question was about people who followed his thinking and and how were females involved in? How were they able to participate on that level? If if you have any of that information as well?

Ken Taylor
Thanks, Carolyn. Paul, you want to tackle that?

Unknown Speaker
That’s a that’s a very important question. We have precious little information about Confucius himself on the subject, although his way of thinking is his emphasis on the past. An important thing to think about is the degree to which a philosophy is responsible for its first most obvious misinterpretation. And the most predominant misinterpretation of Confucianism throughout the tradition was interpreting the study of the past with the worship and imitation of the past and to the Confucian tradition throughout most of his period has been a very, very conservative, and that’s had devastating effect for women in China in particular,

Ken Taylor
But you think that’s a misinterpretation of Confucius? He does I mean, he says that he’s there’s this saying, I don’t I merely pass on what’s in the past or something like that I don’t innovate, right? Or something like that.

Unknown Speaker
There are examples of him saying, you know, why he someone wants to substitute one kind of animal for another and a sacrifice because it’s cheaper. And Confucius says, They value the money, I value the tradition, I value the ritual. However, there are other examples of where Confucius is willing to be flexible and to take into take into consideration other concerns. And he also talks about the the rituals of the Joe being superior the rituals of the Shang and the rituals of Shah dynasties, because they were able to look back on the past and learn from that experience. So he’s, he’s a difficult character to pin down.

John Perry
But now Paul, I read somewhere that Confucius was divorced and that his wife probably left him because he was so picky about the preparation of his meals. And then somewhere else I read that actually his father was divorced, his son was divorced, as if this was almost a mark of distinction. any truth to that?

Ken Taylor
Well, we’ll find out after that. There’s, we’ll find out after the break. We’ll leave you in suspense. You’re listening to Philosophy Talk, we’re discussing Confucius with Paul Kjellberg, Professor of Philosophy from Whittier College.

John Perry
Coming up, we’ll talk about the enduring influence of Confucianism and modern Chinese and Chinese American culture. Were Confucian teachings a part of your upbringing? If so, share your experience with us.

Ken Taylor
Philosophy Ralk. We’ll be right back

John Perry
Well, folks, if you thought you recognize George Harrison and his sitar there, you’re wrong. That was another piece of traditional Chinese instrumental music, “Night Rain on the Plantain,” performed on a 16 string instrument called the cheng. I’m John Perry. This is Philosophy Talk, the program that questions everything…

Ken Taylor
…except your intelligence. I’m Ken Taylor. We’re discussing Confucius with Paul Kjellberg of Whittier College. Join us by calling for 415-841-4134. That’s 415-841-4134.

John Perry
Outside the Bay Area, call toll free 1-800-525-9917. Or email us comments@philosophytalk.org.

Ken Taylor
So Paul, I left we left the audience, the listeners hanging. You were going to answer John’s question about the divorce and all that and whether it was an urban legend.

Unknown Speaker
We have just not enough reliable evidence about Confucius’s own biography to know that, but it’s certainly true that women’s issues were not high on his list of priorities in his own practice or in the tradition that followed from him. There is one notable exception. No, that’s interesting. Mencius, who we were talking about before who was a student of Confucius, his grandson and said that people are by nature good. We have a natural inclination to kindness. There are a lot of stories about Mencius and his mother. And his father died and mentioned his mother moved several times because I guess they were living next to a great next to a cemetery and she looked out and saw little matches, pretending to be a grave digger. So she grabbed them up and moved. And they were living next to a store and she saw him pretending to be a merchant, which he thought was not acceptable. So she grabbed him up and moved and then they were next to a school he was practicing being a teacher, which he decided was good enough so she stayed there. So it seems as though unmentioned his case and positive experience with his mother and with his family growing up does seem to have been influential in his philosophy.

John Perry
Paul, that’s very interesting. I want I want to talk to you about something that’s connected with innovation and connected to the theme of this part of the show, which is continuing influence. China’s culture is famous for inventions like Movable Type gunpowder, fireworks, many of them centuries before the similar things were invented in the West. Yet, is there anything in Confucius’s philosophy that that emphasizes the the good qualities of innovation and change and thinking for yourself and coming up with new ideas? And is this part of the reason that mouths a tongue didn’t want Confucianism around? It was too stifling? What, what’s your take on that set of questions?

Unknown Speaker
That’s a tough call. I mean, any, you know, large tradition has enough resources enough either to support or to discourage something like innovation. So it’s hard to say it’s all one way or the other. And as you pointed out, while there were very conservative periods and tendencies in the Chinese tradition, there were also very, very innovative periods and tendencies, all of which come under the general umbrella of Confucianism. So you can’t really say that Confucianism is one way or the other. However, there is a there is one kind of central theme, which is the value placed on social harmony and stability. And that innovations that aren’t conducive to social harmony and stability, are probably not going to be as immediately valued as they might be in the Western tradition.

Ken Taylor
So you could never justify a women’s movement, or the emancipation of a of a previously oppressed class on the basis of Confucian ideals.

Unknown Speaker
I mean, oh, I think you certainly could, but you would do it in a different way. And you’re not what kind of but what this is hard to say, because, again, the Confucian tradition is huge. And there are people in the Confucian tradition, basing their arguments on on ideas of human rights and things like that. But you could also make those same arguments on something more resembling a communitarian basis, or even something that we would think of like an ethic of care as being justifications for advocating the rights of women.

Ken Taylor
Let me ask you a question about the continuing influence of, of Confucius. Is it still with us in in China and the Chinese diaspora is, I mean, as we as we said that in the AMI standards piece, but do you agree with that, is it still with

Unknown Speaker
Oh, sure, yes, very much in the Chinese diaspora. Again, just like there’s so many different Confucianism is there now an awful lot of different China’s and they’re quite different from one another. But during the during the communist period, and mainland China, Confucianism was generally thought of as something that had held the Chinese the Chinese country back so that he was not popular. And then, Mao kicked off the Cultural Revolution with the official peeping komang the criticize Confucius and Mencius campaign. Now people look back at the Cultural Revolution is something that is generally thought of as somewhat regrettable. And Confucianism has risen since then, although it hasn’t risen as much as the market has in the dongs market reforms.

Ken Taylor
Let’s get one last caller in. C.K. in Oakland, you want to weigh in on something about the liberalism and conservatism of Confucianism, right?

C.K.
Yes, yes. Now I’m probably I’m probably just pointing out the obvious but isn’t Dalit Taoism isn’t exactly conducive to social harmony and stability in the Confucian senses it I mean, there’s there’s a passage in the intellect striking where everyone went everywhere Confucius says if I can’t find people to associate with who steer a middle course then I’ll settle for the for associating with the crazy and the timid the crazy will do anything and there are things that timid will never do that that’s that’s not exactly that that’s all I’m thinking that that it seeks to institute great change anywhere it didn’t do its it seeks to pretty much keep things as they are. And I remember that Jonesy oh actually portrayed Confucius as a sort of philosophical stumble bomb who had failed to understand the Dow as liberal is our as liberal and conservative alternatives to philosophy.

John Perry
So CK you think this great Chinese tradition gives us a lot of different plates we can eat from in terms of…

Ken Taylor
Okay, thanks, thanks for the call. Paul, you want to make one last comment on that.

Unknown Speaker
Not just as a give us different plates we can eat from but each one of the plates that you can eat from for a long time and see it in a lot of different ways that there’s no end of interpretation, any one of these texts.

Ken Taylor
Paul, thanks a lot for joining us. Thanks turned out be the last word. Thanks so much.

Paul Kjellberg
Pleasure.

John Perry
Thanks, Paul. And we also want to thank all the callers we didn’t get a chance to talk to and emailers we didn’t get a chance to read the email of.

Ken Taylor
Our guest has been Paul Kjellberg, professor of philosophy at Whittier College editor of “Essays on Skepticism, Relativism, and Ethics in the Zhuangzi.” So John, what’s your state of mind today? What have you learned?

John Perry
Well as usual, I learned quite a bit. I learned a little bit more about the life and times of Confucius, about the nature of the Confucian tradition, the basic concepts and the indoor enduring role of Confucianism, even as Amy’s piece showed, in Chinese America.

Ken Taylor
You said something about, after Amy’s piece, you were really impressed by those Confucian values, and kind of suggested that you might prefer them to Western individualistic values. Were you serious about that? I mean, do you think they’re, you think there’s something we’re missing and are over individualism that we could learn from Confucius?

John Perry
I don’t know if I prefer. Well, let’s, what are the three was education and I think education is undervalued, undervalued, and California undervalued in America? I don’t know. I don’t think that’s part of our tradition. It’s just seems to be a kind of corollary of not spending money on taxes. So I’m all for that value. Humility. Well, I think humility is one of those like Aristotle’s golden mean, I think Confucius also had a golden mean, you don’t want to be too humble, but you don’t want to be too arrogant and full of yourself. Either. filial piety. Well, I don’t know respect for the elders—you can overdo that.

Ken Taylor
With all your grandchildren, I would think filial piety would be a big thing.

John Perry
Self-interested motive for that virtue.

Ken Taylor
The thing I think about this is that we our society is under ritualized we could learn something about that from from confusion. But you know what? You should read our blog if you want to continue this conversation because we’re running out of time: www.theblog.philosophytalk.org.

John Perry
And now it’s time for Philosophy Talk Goes to the Movies!

Ken, seen any good movies lately?

Ken Taylor
Yeah you know, my wife and I just went to see “Million Dollar Baby.” I loved it. It was a great movie.

John Perry
I agree with you. I thought it was a very good movie. I thought it was well acted, well directed. I’ve liked Clint Eastwood since he was on wagon train about 100 years ago.

Ken Taylor
There’s a really deep point here about autonomy, self control, and owning one’s own life. Right. But I think we got to tell us something about the story to make that point. So Hilary Swank is this boxer. I guess he’s not very good at it. Right? She comes to Clint Eastwood studio, I think it’s called a gym can Clint Eastwood gym and says train me boss, but he says no, he refuses. But she keeps trying and trying and trying to get his attention.

John Perry
She gets his attention. She becomes kind of his daughter. Figure. He takes great pride in her cares a lot about her, tries to keep her safe. She does awfully well. But eventually she’s really delivered a blow a blindside after the bell blow that knocks her over. She hits her head on the on the stool and she becomes a quadriplegic.

Ken Taylor
Yeah. And she can’t stand it. She wants to die.

John Perry
There’s kind of two issues that come up here. One is a general issue of euthanasia. In the end, Clint Eastwood helps her die. And a lot of people have criticized the movie for representing in a sympathetic way this decision he made against his Catholic faith to help someone in their life even if the whole issue of euthanasia doesn’t you don’t think it’s morally unacceptable? It’s okay to portrayed in movies as done by sympathetic characters. Still, to me, there was a question What exactly were the circumstances, I’m not clear that she did want to die. Immediately upon finding herself in the hospital as a quadriplegic. It was only after her family came in. And it was clear that they were just interested in getting the rights to all of her possessions and everything after her break with her mother. That’s when she really gets depressed. And I wonder in that circumstances, was Eastwood’s decision, correct?

Ken Taylor
Well, there’s two things. There’s Eastwood, and there’s her I want to talk about her. And then we can talk about Eastwood, she said to Eastwood, look at what I’ve had, look at where I’ve been, I’ve scaled the height, right? And this is what’s left to me, and I don’t want to live this life. Basically, I don’t want this life. I choose a life that ends like this, with me dying. Now having scaled these heights, rather than going on as a quadriplegic, right, with nothing to look forward to with his greedy family of mine, I choose a life that ends now helped me in my choice, right? I think her choice, her desire, is deeply rational, and is tied up with her wanting to control the narrative structure of her own life, right? I don’t want my life to go on and be this story. I want to write that story. So I think her choice is deeply rational and very powerful.

John Perry
I’m not so sure her decision is rational, I think are depressions hits in with a series of events that that are in addition to the quadriplegic, the virtual desertion of her by her family, her realization that they’re hopeless and then she begins to have circulation problems that lead to the need to amputate her leg. Now, it may be in that case, given all of that it was rational, she saw the in coming bits by bit, and she didn’t want to do that. But if it’s just the idea that she used to be a boxer in full command of her body, and now all she’s got left is her brain and her mind and her friends. I don’t think that’s rational. I think Clint Eastwood should have said to her, Look, Hillary, what made you a great boxer wasn’t your physique. It was that brain and you’ve still got it, and you can scale lots of other heights.

Ken Taylor
Look, everybody’s gonna die at some point or other, you might think, well, that’s a really bad thing. But look, every life ends. And you don’t judge the the goodness of a life by the thing that comes after the life. You judge it by the life itself. And what was she doing, she was choosing her life. I want the period in my life to come here with this story, rather than the come over here with that other story. She was choosing the story of her life. I think that’s a deep and important thing.

John Perry
Well, I agree it’s a deep and important thing. And I’m pretty much agree with what you say, a short record isn’t necessarily not as good a record as a long record, hey, Jude was better than it would have been if it only been two minutes long. But probably it’s good that it didn’t go on for an hour or two. Still, I think when a person makes a rational decision, that means they’re choosing amongst the possibilities they can envisage the one that they prefer a person has a right to make that choice. But as a caregiver, someone who cares about him, you ought to spend some time making sure not just that they’ve made the choice within the range of possibilities, but that the range of possibilities is as broad as it possibly could be. And there, I wasn’t sure that Eastwood had done his job.

Ken Taylor
Oh, I think you’re right. I mean, Eastwood struggled with his own conscience. I mean, he struggled for himself, but he didn’t really engage her in any kind of real, probing inquiry, you know, what are you doing? What really are you choosing if he had engaged her in a probing inquiry, you could still see how it would be a kind of celebration of a life to end it by your own autonomous choice. Right? And therefore define the character of your own life than to just suffer as the as the fate of circumstances.

John Perry
But why couldn’t the eastwood character talk a little more, it’s not that he was a dumb slug in a gym. He was sitting around reading poetry learning Gaelic, he could have engaged her in a little more intelligent conversation.

Ken Taylor
You know, you’re right. I mean, you’re right. And he was a very thoughtful guy, but he’s got this kind of almost zen like wisdom about when is the right time, you know, given that character, he might have asked her, is this the right time? Is this the moment, but he doesn’t do any of that. So maybe that’s a weakness in the movie. Or maybe it’s part of the character deciding, let her go. Let her have her wings and go.

John Perry
I don’t agree with those who criticize any sympathetic portrayal of euthanasia or those who help with euthanasia. I just have some nagging doubts whether the eastwood character did everything he should have done in this particular case.

Ken, it’s fun talking about movies, but it’s also fun to help our listeners talk about the philosophical problems that arise in our own life.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, if you’ve got a conundrum, you can send us an email at conundrums@philosophytalk.org. We won’t promise to solve your problem, but we will give you lots of new ways to think about it.

John Perry
Philosophy Talk is a presentation of Ben Manilla productions and the trustees of Leland Stanford Junior University.

Ken Taylor
Our executive producer is Gordon Earle.

John Perry
Special Thanks to Dave Fusaro, Nicole Sawaya, Ben Temchine, and Alan Farley.

Ken Taylor
Support for Philosophy Talk comes from the Pacific Division of the American Philosophical Association, and from various groups at Stanford University.

John Perry
And even more support from the Driends of Philosophy Talk and from the members of KALW Information Radio San Francisco, where our program originates.

Ken Taylor
The views expressed or (mis-expressed) on this program do not necessarily represent the opinions of Stanford University or of our funders.

John Perry
The conversation continues on our website, www.philosophytalk.org. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Thank you for listening.

John Perry
And thank you for thinking.