Ancient Cynicism

Ken Taylor
Welcome to Philosophy Talk the program that questions everything…

John Perry
…except your intelligence. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. We’re here at the studios of KALW San Francisco.

John Perry
Continuing conversations that began at philosophers corner at Stanford where Ken and I teach philosophy.

Ken Taylor
Today we’re philosophizing about ancient cynicism.

John Perry
That’s cynicism with a capital C, a school of thought that began in fifth century Athens and lasted for 800 years. This philosophical school has given modern English the word cynic and cynicism.

Ken Taylor
Now, there’s a complicated relation between those modern words John and the ancient school, but for the time being, let’s bracket that and come back to that.

John Perry
Okay, the greatest ancient cynic, Diogenes lived some 300 years before Christ. He was born in cinah Pei, a Greek town on the Black Sea and died in Corinth at the age of 90. In between, he spent a good bit of time in Athens.

Ken Taylor
And he was really well connected in Athens. He tended Plato’s lectures, he was a Alexander the Great, admired Diogenes puts in No, he wasn’t much into friendship, Plato tried to befriend them and so did Alexander. But he rebuffed both of these leading lights of Athens.

John Perry
Well, you know, Ken, I have to admit that if I didn’t know Diogenes was a great philosopher, I would think he was just a great jerk.

Ken Taylor
Well, you know, he was certainly a strange man. I mean, he lived in a tub after all, a tub, but a jerk. Why do you say that?

John Perry
Well, because he was unfriendly and mean. Since he urinated wherever and whenever he felt like it, I would imagine he was a bit unpleasant to be around. And he was a misogynist, a misogynist. Really? Yes, sir. He saw a woman had been executed hanging from a tree he said, I wish that every tree bores similar fruit. That sounds pretty misogynistic to me.

Ken Taylor
But that’s being unfair, because he would have said the same thing. If you’d seen a man hanging on the tree. He pretty much thought that every being human being he meant male or female came up short way short.

John Perry
Well, I guess you’re right. He walked around Athens holding a ladder and looking for a true real human being, and never found one as far as I know. I guess if you hate most humans, male and female alike. It’s misleading to call you a massage.

Ken Taylor
Right. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg of his weirdness.

John Perry
Well as drew I mean, he was definitely unfriendly. He asked Plato once for a meal of wine and figs because diocese was a beggar. He didn’t have a job. Plato sending him a whole jug of wine. Instead of saying thank you. He criticized Plato mercilessly for not giving him just what he asked for.

Ken Taylor
Well, but he wasn’t just being an ungracious, unfriendly jerk, John, there was actually a well thought out philosophical method behind his apparent madness. He thought that philosophers and everyone else actually should focus on the physical world and basic human needs Plato’s otherworldly philosophy, he thought that was wrongheaded, even dangerous. Now, I admit, he had a rather harsh way of making his philosophical points, no doubt about that.

John Perry
Well, how about this one? Alexander in the midst of conquering the world spreading Greek values throughout the known world, came to visit Diogenes. This great man asks, Is there anything I can do for you? Diogenes says, Yeah, move. You’re blocking the sun, who said any way to treat a great man who’s trying to do something nice for you?

Ken Taylor
Well, Diogenes was, you know, he was he thought that people should live simply in harmony with nature. And he thought that if we did so there would be no need whatsoever for states or armies or wars. So he truly had no respect whatsoever for what Alexander the Great was up to and he just refused to be hypocritical John.

John Perry
But look at this guy not only urinated wherever he wanted, he also dedicated and masturbated whenever and wherever he wanted, without any respect for the conventions of society or the sensibilities of others. What’s the philosophical point of that?

Ken Taylor
There’s a deep philosophical point, and Diogenes was performing his philosophy. Look, he thought that the can conventions and rules are just arbitrary, often silly, they do us no good. They alienate us from nature, and they deprive us of true happiness. And if we can’t defend those practices, by reason we should ignore them, and he did more than ignore them, he flaunted them. And you know what, I’m sure lots of people, not just philosophers believe what Diogenes believed. But Diogenes has something most people don’t have oder courage or conviction. He lived with utter conviction and was completely devoted to his philosophical principles.

John Perry
Okay, fair enough. Diogenes was a principled philosopher, and that’s the reason he behaved bizarrely. You’ve convinced me now in the modern use of the term cynic he he fits what we sometimes In that he was very cynical that is skeptical of the principles of others. But but we use the term in another way when we talk about people with a cynical disregard for human life. People who are themselves unprincipled and he certainly was not a cynic in that sense.

Ken Taylor
You are definitely right about that. And we sent our roving philosophical reporter, Caitlin Esch, to find out more about the modern use of the words cynic and cynicism and their relation to ancient cynicism. She files this report.

Speaker 1
Cynical as someone who doesn’t think the glass is half full.

Cynicism is the practice of questioning accepted or established truths,

Speaker 1
That life isn’t a breeze, things can be difficult, and there’s a bit of grit with life.

Geoff Nunberg
Well Woody Allen’s a terribly cynical character.

Deconstructing Harry
Tradition is the illusion of permanence. You have no values your whole life. It’s nihilism. It’s cynicism, it’s sarcasm, and orgasm. You know, in France, I could run in that slogan and win.

Geoff Nunberg
Nowadays, it’s almost invariably criticism to call somebody a cynic.

Caitlin Esch
Linguists Geoff Nunberg teachers at UC Berkeley’s School of Information.

Geoff Nunberg
Cynicism has a number of modern forms. One of them is one you see a lot in university towns. There’s this vast army of Birkenstock cynics walking around in the university towns of Northern California, people are will have no faith in the institutions of government or in political reform will make a point of flouting the conventions of dress.

Caitlin Esch
Okay, so that’s cynicism today, but number it says cynicism used to refer to something quite different. The term goes back to ancient times when the philosophical stunt man Diogenes the cynic raised eyebrows by rejecting convention.

Geoff Nunberg
Because he lived in a manner that was as close to the animal or the simple as he could get. He had no public shame about washing himself in public or even masturbating in public. He dressed in rags he ate with the simplest utensils if it said that when he saw a dog lapping water, he threw away the shell that he had been using to drink water single here’s a two light don’t use and made a point of living in this way that’s that defied the ordinary conventions of life and speaking directly to everyone.

Caitlin Esch
The word cynicism comes from the word Kuniko. ‘s meaning doglike in his own dramatic way. Diogenes was protesting self indulgence, excess and greed. A message that’s resonated throughout history.

Geoff Nunberg
He was a popular figure in the enlightenment, a popular figure in modern times. Wittgrenstein—there’s something of Diogenes in Wittgenstein, that refusal to play the game. There’s something of Diogenes in a writer like Philip Roth.

Philip Roth
When the whole world doesn’t believe in God, it’ll be a great place.

Geoff Nunberg
There’s something of Diogenes in a character like Eric Hoffer.

Eric Hoffer
I think you could be a Michelangelo and still be at plain working man.

Geoff Nunberg
There’s something about Diogenes in philosophers who wear long, scraggly beard.

Annie Hall
It’s one thing about intellectuals they prove that you can be absolutely brilliant that have no idea what’s going on.

Caitlin Esch
Nunberg says what was once a moral code or a way of living virtuously has come to describe a person who has no faith in their fellow man.

Geoff Nunberg
It’s really in the 19th century that you begin to see cynicism using this purely negative way for Teddy Roosevelt. The muckrakers the journalist who uncovered all of the abuses of housing and corruption were cynics because they only wanted to tear things down. They didn’t want to pick things up.

Caitlin Esch
For Philosophy Talk, I’m Caitlin Esch.

John Perry
Thanks, Caitlin. And thanks to our old friend Geoff Nunberg, for that discussion of what we now mean by cynicism. I’m John Perry with me as Ken Taylor. We both teach at Stanford in the philosophy department

Ken Taylor
And we’re asking today about Diogenes and cynicism. We’re joined now by Luis Navia. He’s a professor of philosophy at the New York Institute of Technology. He’s author of “Diogenes the Cynic: The War Against the World.” Luis, welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Luis Navia
Thank you. Thank you very much.

John Perry
Luis, let me start with a question of a personal nature. We don’t have any of Diogenes’ writings, if indeed, he wrote anything. The secondhand accounts, we have a philosophy are sketchy at best. He seems to be a thoroughly disagreeable fella. So I have a question for you. You love the ancient world, but why of all the people you could write about? Would you pick this difficult guy Diogenes?

Luis Navia
I have I have written about other Greek philosophers like Socrates and so on. And one of the difficulties about the origin is is that apparently he either left hand no writings, he had no use for writing, or whatever he may have written early in his life he’s lost. So the result of this is that We have to somehow appeal to countless anecdotes that began to circulate during his time in all the way on the lay Roman times. In the it is possible that perhaps some of the accounts of the homogeneous were exaggerated were changed, perhaps

Ken Taylor
But Luis, what draws you to Diogenes? What first do you do want to write a book about?

Luis Navia
Well, I have to confess to you say that I have a touch of cynicism myself in the old sense. I tend to view some of the practices some of the political situation of today, some of the values by which people live, the consumerism in which we are immersed, as fundamental detrimental to what I believe is in that the natural way of being human. So the world has become so terribly artificial.

John Perry
So Diogenes kind of resonated with you. Now just to get us started, I mean, in your in your wonderful book, you kind of distilled 12 principles that explain Diogenes, thought and action, we don’t have time to discuss all 12 Before the break, but could you give us one or two of the most important to give our audience a feel for Diogenes really serious philosophical views?

Speaker 2
Well, I have put together 1010 propositions not 12. But 10, suggested perhaps by the origin of the cynic one of them, for instance, is this, the one and only object of philosophy or thought is human existence in any other object can only be the sole source of distraction in an inconsequential way to satisfy the unhealthy sense of curiosity that afflict human beings, to in our endeavor to make sense of human existence, we must direct our attention to the physical world, only because we are physical beings. Life is uncertain, very brief, indeed, would not make more sense to live each moment as if it were the only moment in each day as if it were the last day, incidentally says this is what this is how I have attempted maybe unsuccessfully to live

Ken Taylor
like so. So you think that that principle live each moment as if it’s the only moment? So we’re trying to distill, which are that like major principles? You listed three is that moment? Does that live each moment as if it’s the only moment? Is that a big deal? Is that a big deal for Diogenes?

Speaker 2
Well, it is a link that in that in that leads us to other ideas of him for example, happiness, real happiness cannot be reached achieved as long as we fail to understand its nature. Neither one happiness understood in its Greek word of eudaimonia. That is, well being cannot be defined in terms of possessions. pleasures, confers power, fame erudition a long life in all of those things, which in view of ordinary people seem to be the essential components of life?

John Perry
Well, Luis, you’re making Diiogenes sound like a very relevant philosopher, which I think he is, so we’ll continue after the break. And learn more about this fascinating and very contemporary person.

Ken Taylor
You’re listening to philosophy to talk today with thinking about the philosophy of ancient cynicism with our guest, Luis Navia, author of “Diogenes the Cynic.”

John Perry
Are you tempted to give up technology baked for your food and live as closely as you can to nature? Like Diogenes did? If so, what would be your reasons?

Ken Taylor
Diogenes cynicism and society, plus your calls and emails? When Philosophy Talk continues.

Seth Augustus
But when he comes down off that hilltop, man you better watch out.

King of the Hill
You better watch out when a philosopher like guides and he’s comes around. I’m John Perry. This is Philosophy Talk, the program that questions everything…

Ken Taylor
…except your intelligence. I’m Ken Taylor. We’re talking about Diogenes and his philosophy of cynicism.

John Perry
Our guest is Luis Nava from the New York Institute of Technology. He’s the author of fine book Diogenes the cynic the war against the world.

Ken Taylor
So Louis, someone asked you about to what seemed to me like maybe conflicting elements of Diogenes philosophy, he said, live in accordance with nature, but he was also a kind of radical extreme individualism. He wanted to be totally self sufficient. But you know, Aristotle says that humans by nature are social animals. We both we we belong in social groups. So if we live in nature, Won’t we be the opposite of what Diogenes said, What do you think about that?

Speaker 2
I? I don’t think is necessary. So because if for example, it take the example of the present condition of the world in which there are wars that are threats. There is dissension just about everywhere. Is this really the ideal of human nature? No, it’s not. And Diogenes would have said, for example, that most people today, or many people today live in a very thoughtless world. We don’t use reason. And this is one of the most critical things I think in Diogenes, which I think inherited perhaps from even from Socrates himself,

Ken Taylor
Louise, I get I said, Louise, so I just I get your point that sometimes social life goes awry war and all that sort of stuff. If human beings didn’t live in society, they wouldn’t be war and all that stuff. They wouldn’t be armies. I get that. But you, you don’t want to. I mean, the diocesan is worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You know what I mean? You don’t want the war apart. But you do want the collective undertaking the interdependence part did he? Did he bow at all to the interdependence of human beings?

Speaker 2
Well, my sense is this man, that for that for Diogenes, as a matter of fact, there is one anecdote in which he argues that he’s had in his ideas in in his war against the world. He is acting as, as he puts it, as a director of a choir, in which he demands all the music, all the singers to reach the highest note. But of course, he knows that we don’t do that kind of thing, this ultimately an ideal he has, and he was intelligent enough to recognize that it may not be attainable by by people in general. But the point is, this we have to strive to be able to live in a very rational world. Because reason, on like, the read on like, in the case of animals, reason sought, thinking things out, is is ultimately the critical component of what we call human nature. But but you find people doing things without thought. When you find people acting irrationally, where they are really militating against, against the human nature, he does not really mean to say I don’t think that we should revert to being animals.

John Perry
But Luis in your in your book, you explain that one of the things Aristotle didn’t like about dodge knees, was a time sneeze did not appreciate the fact that man that humans are social animals. So on the one hand, he says the world belongs equally to all its inhabitants. So that means we have to get along with everybody. Now, he seemed to think you could do that without having any social conventions or rules because he thought reason taught us those were all arbitrary and should be ignored, but that I liked the naturalism but that part of his philosophy seems to me pretty dubious,

Speaker 2
is it you we have to we have to bear in mind that the origin ism was not his systematic, systematic philosopher, not at all. A flaw in other words, he he’s not a person, comparable to Plato, in Aristotle, especially, he presents different views exaggerate the situation. In the in the this is this is this is the reason now? Again, I think he’s, he has to exaggerate things at least to awaken people from this lumbering which they normally live. If you look at the world today, what is it that brings happiness to people noise, even technology? Perhaps, maybe not. The world is very disjointed as far as I can tell myself. I have been around for many years and I have seen this and I’m sure you are aware of these things to say a condition of thoughtlessness we act with our thinking. So the audience wants to put a bar that is terribly high, maybe never reachable by human beings. But at least we can make that effort you’re listening to lots of virtual game a game after him. A single understood these for example Marcus are rarely use. The Roman emperor who was a stoic refers to the origin is repeatedly and he also would like to have imitated his life this life of simplicity. How many shoes do you need for your

Ken Taylor
listening to Philosophy Talk? We’re talking about Diogenes the ancient cynic. We’d love to have you join this conversation. Nate from San Francisco. On the line, welcome to Philosophy Talk.

Nate
Nate I, my question is this, is there a parallel of the philosophy of the simplistic lifestyle between the current Occupy Movement and the classic cynic lifestyle?

John Perry
Well, Luis, you’re back there in New York where the Occupy movement got its start. What do you think of that question? Did you hear it? Okay?

Speaker 2
Yes, I did. Well, I really don’t know much about it, because I live in a different place. But I the principles that the the initial intention of these kinds of movements probably have something in common with the origin is rejection of social conventions of the political system, or the consumerism in which we have been drawn for years and years and years. And, but at the same time, some of these movements may turn out to be very irrational in their behavior in the way they are. For instance, I don’t remember having heard about the audience having attacked anybody having disturbed anybody physically and so on. He spoke, he lived a very simple life, he really didn’t have much to do with many people. And so some of these movements are perhaps initially cynical in the sense of Diogenes. Some of them actually developed into a type of what I might call a modern cynicism.

Ken Taylor
But I’m always I’m gonna ask you a question about I want to follow up on this a bit because the subtitle of your book, the war against the world, and I from reading your book and other stuff, I think that sounds seem he seems to have meant that literally, that is, he really wanted to what he called deface the currency of your social life. He really wanted to undermine society and all that stuff and get people it was kind of a revolutionary movement. Is that right? Like the Occupy movement? It was revolutionary and intense.

Speaker 2
Revolutionary? Yes, perhaps. But I think he would have said, if I may use more than turn. We do need an injection of thought, in reason in the things we do. On Violence is not Diogenes. Way, a wars are not Diogenes way, as long as we remain somehow irrational in our behavior, then the goal that the holiness sought to instill in human beings he’s lost, and so on.

John Perry
So So, Luis, we got a we got a question along these lines from Paul in San Francisco. And now I should say, in your book, you point out that I think that it needs new Socrates and and went to Plato’s lectures, from the time he was in Athens, I assume, you know, Aristotle, too. So Paul says, Could you please explain what is common to the cynics? And the other ancient schools of philosophy? Why do why do we call all these ancient guys, philosophers?

Speaker 2
It’s a complex question, it will take a long time to say much about it. But here is at least the idea. In philosophy, the word itself apparently was coined by Pythagoras about 200 years before the homogeneous, it simply means the love of wisdom and when Wisdom means the application of reasoning in human behavior as the idea that has permeated philosophy on till the present time that philosophy means love of wisdom, a commitment to reason, which is often lacking people in turn, in that direction is ultimately comes from that old tradition. And one of the interesting things about cynicism in Diogenes saints is that eventually gave birth to a very important school of philosophy known as stoicism. The stoics were cynics like Diogenes. Not as extreme as he was. A all the way through the end the Roman times. You find cynics?

Ken Taylor
So but one of the things that strikes me about the difference between the arginase Diogenes and many philosophers, not so much a difference with Socrates because in one way, he strikes me as very Socratic, very like Socrates. But for him, philosophy wasn’t really about writing down a set of propositions and doctrines and arguing for them, but airtight arguments and all that. I mean, that’s kind of what philosophy has come to embody these days in modernity. But for him, it was more like philosophy was a kind of performance, a performance with a certain aim, right? He, he performed his philosophy more than wrote his philosophy. Is that correct? Right?

Speaker 2
You’re absolutely correct. As a matter of fact, that is an anecdote in which the origin is said to have said, and having heard the lecture by Plato in the academy, that Plato’s philosophy is a waste of time. There’s nothing to hear there. He’s talking about things that ultimately don’t touch on human existence that much. And I think Aristotle was also able to recognize this, and so on, so that he was a philosopher. Certainly he was that he exaggerated things he certainly did. And very often exaggeration, may very well contribute to forcing people to reach a higher plateau of, of human of human life in a certain sense. You know, the theory is a statement by a German philosopher Schopenhauer, whom I wrote my doctoral dissertation, in which he says that human life gives every indication of having been a mistake of nature. Right? Well, had Diogenes heard that statement from the pessimistic philosophy of Schopenhauer who would have said, well, if it is a mistake of nature, it is our duty to at least make some effort to correct the mistake. We have to share the same world, we die in the same way or the people die. Our needs are fundamentally very basic, and very few. We don’t need for example, that the madness of consumerism that apparently is overtaking the world, especially certain countries, I suppose more than others. So

John Perry
So So Luis, when I read your book, I was very reminded of Schopenhauer philosophically, but in terms of, of their actual lives, they’re very different. Schopenhauer published a great deal, and I’m sure he never urinated in public. But I think now we’ve got a caller on the line. Right, Ken?

Ken Taylor
Dave, from Castro Valley. Welcome, Dave. Good morning.

Luis Navia
Good morning.

Dave
My question is, based on what you were talking a little bit earlier about how much you know, he would masturbate and urinate in public at that time, was this considered, you know, something a little bit more common and acceptable in that society? I know their sexual mores of men, being with boys and that sort of thing, you know, was more acceptable? And, you know, along those lines, if he was considered, you know, like somebody that was against society by doing that, you know, why would he have not, you know, been subjected to something that Socrates was, which was being executed for being a danger to the state?

Ken Taylor
I wonder about that same thing? Thanks for the question, Dave. Especially the last like, I wonder was he regarded as he wasn’t revolutionary? Was he regarded as a danger to the state?

Speaker 2
I know, that’s a very difficult question. As a matter of fact, there are reports that once a some, some boys, people, men and so on, destroy his job, in essence, so he’s taught me how they would stones and so on. And the report is whether it’s true or not, we just found this in so on is this the Athenian Council, the government of Athens, immediately paid for the construction of a new top for the man. So apparently, apparently was not a man who was viewed as a as a danger to the community and so on.

Ken Taylor
Does that mean he was a failure? He’s so Luis, does that mean he was a failure? Because look, he wanted to unsettle society, what the Undo convention, he wanted to undo the moon. So was he a failure?

Speaker 2
I failure, absolutely a failure, sir. The great great philosophers having a failure in general, you know, in other words, they have seen certain things that need to be done. Especially the injection of human reason in human activities. And we haven’t learned very much look at the world today. Right. Okay, the situation in which we are now. What what have we learned? How have we improved? That’s

Ken Taylor
a powerful question we got we got another caller on the line. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Agnes in Mountain View. I actually am Henry if you’re talking Okay. What’s your comment?

Henry
Yes, thank you. They Argent, I disagree with what you’re saying. Diogenes would have said question everything especially you’re intelligent. That’s true. He would have and also meaning that George Carlin who is my favorite philosopher, and Arthur C. Clarke routed for the destruction of the human race and I have to agree but Carlin said and here’s the point, Carlin said, don’t call me a cynic. Cynics are the ones that tell you anything. Breathing is going to be all right. And I agree. I’ll take my answer off the air and many blessings. Thank you.

Ken Taylor
But the the ancient Diogenes did not think everything was going to be all right. So Carlin didn’t know the meaning I don’t think of ancient ism. But Louise, you have a you have a comment on that?

Speaker 2
No, I’m not sure if I can phrase it comment away.

John Perry
Yeah, my Luisa side on this one.

Ken Taylor
I mean, I love the idea. I love the idea that we need to undo humanity. I mean, the attorneys really wanted to do undo civilization completely right. He just thought civilization was a complete wrong turn. Do I get that right?

Speaker 2
I’m not sure. I’m not sure of that. I don’t think he was a revolutionary in the way in which revolutionaries exists today you have existed in the past, is one of one of the manifestations of His lack of revolutionary ideas is the here is a man who, who lives in Athens sleeps in cordings. For many years, he has a very long life. And no one no one I don’t think ever made any effort to. To eliminate him.

Ken Taylor
You’re listening to Philosophy Talk. We’re talking about ancient cynicism, with Luis navio, author of Diogenes the cynic the war against the world.

John Perry
If Diogenes thought that the ancient Athenians had alienated themselves from nature, what would he think of 21st century Americans? Is living simply and close to nature, really something any of us could do? Is it something we should all try to do?

Ken Taylor
Philosophy Talk goes back to nature after this.

Groucho Marx
Whatever it is, I’m against it. I’m against it!

John Perry
Groucho Marx, making fun of politicians and sounding as contemporary as ever. Whatever it is, the modern cynics against it. But today, we’re talking about the ancient snake and that’s a bit different. This is Philosophy Talk. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Our guest is Luis navio, author of Diogenes the cynic, the war against the world and we’ve got Agnus from Mountain View, I believe on the line. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Agnes.

Agnes
Hello. Thanks for having me. So I was wondering if you guys could help me maybe place Diogenes a bit more in like us. ORCL context. I know there are other movements that follow cynicism, like stoicism, for example, but what can you explain maybe the relationship between biographies and later philosophies like stoicism? Okay. That’s

Ken Taylor
a good question. Thanks, Agnes. So Louise rustler relationship between the ancient cynicism and ancient stoicism,

Speaker 2
that there is a there is a connection between these two movements and that goes back all the way to Socrates. stoicism came into being a through the ideas of a disciple, not a disciple of a student, not even a student of a student of Diogenes, the audience had his friend disciple called Kratos, Kratos, a philosopher to from home, we have some writings, but not significant, and it was Kratos who led a man by the name of Zeno, Zeno, a into his philosophy and Zeno became the founder of, of stoicism. And the word stoic in Greek conveys, a in some sense, the idea of a person whose emotions, feelings are dominated by reason, in the fundamental principle of stoicism at the beginning with Zeno and other people to what says that human actions have to be guided not by feelings, or emotions, or even love. But above all, there has to be something far more fundamental that can guide human human human existence. And that is human nature, namely, acting always by reference to what reason dictates,

Ken Taylor
right, but the stoics had this view, as I understand it, that the universe was providentially guided by Zeus and that, you know, and Providence wasn’t evident to us, but if we just kind of trusted and acted on our common emotions and didn’t get carried away, everything would be all right. Is it? There’s no but I understand Diogenes to be sort of an atheist, sort of, right. So he didn’t Did he believe in kind of a providential order that there was something guiding I mean, nature lives by nature and everything’s gonna be alright. Why? Because

Speaker 2
the issues is somewhat complicated because there are statements attributed to Diogenes. And that he where he says that he is acting on his ideas or his practice, is ultimately guided by, not by Zeus. He doesn’t accept, but a divine, a divine order of the universe, divine order of the universe. And there are many statements attributed to him in which he, he, he refers to himself as a as someone who is guided by, by, by these benevolent in, in rational, being or existence or whatever it is. And so that’s the origin is in this in this, the stoics kept it very, very carefully to if you read, for example, the meditations of Marcus Aurelius, who was a cynic himself in many ways. And stoic Of course, he constantly refers to a divine presence in the world. But that Divine Presence is really manifested in the ability human beings have, at least, in principle, the ability to act always in a very rational fashion. Yeah, the way I am acting as I’m talking to you and the way you’re talking to me, in the things we do normally, however, once a once emotions and feelings and traditions and in the atavistic customs of people in all kinds of parts of the world, including here are all the constant hunger people have pure pleasure in their for possessions and so on. Those things militate against these rationality that he hoped and Socrates did too. And many most many philosophers have done the same thing.

Ken Taylor
Louise Louise, I switched, I’m going to switch grounds a little bit, because dodgy knees is widely thought to be are said to be, maybe mistakenly the first cosmopolitan ask, you know, where are you? Where are you a citizen off? He said, I’m a citizen, supposedly, I’m a citizen of the world. Right? And but he didn’t like Alexander who was like a cosmopolitan. And what was Did he have a like a politics? Was he really a cosmopolitan? That seems to make no sense or was

John Perry
was a more of an anarchy, sir,

Speaker 2
that the word cosmopolitan perhaps is occasionally misinterpreted by like people. And the way in which perhaps the cynics, and perhaps all the people in ancient times use the word Cosmo polities means not the citizen of the world, perhaps Cosmos means world and so on. But in the case of Diogenes, in some of the statements attributed to him, when asked for example, what is your country? Or two, what country do you belong? And he says, to where I am now, is not the world at large, right? But it is your own specific existence of this time.

Ken Taylor
So I want to follow up on that. I’m gonna follow another question. Okay. So cosmopolitan is something I like, and I thought, oh, Diogenes was the first cosmopolitan but he’s not a cosmopolitan, he’s a localist or something. But But I want to think about the 21st century, and whether we could actually import cynical ideas, you said, the world is so messed up. I mean, is there really a recipe in Diogenes for living in the 21st century for coping in the 21st century for ameliorating 21st century problems? Is there really a recipe in there that a thinking person could get their teeth into

Speaker 2
sir as a disciple of Schopenhauer and as pessimistic as he was? The system of education, for example, here and elsewhere, too, and I’ve traveled a lot being many places, universities and so on. schools, high schools, and the way in which our children are being educated is, is so contrary to the true meaning of education. Yes, education, as you perhaps know, in Latin means something that you that comes out of yourself a Ducati means to take things out, not put things in. So our our population is somehow on the other hand, constantly filled with ideas through the press, through televisions, through politicians through all kinds of books, too. And the one of the one of the efforts I have made when I have been teaching is I don’t want to teach students anything. I want them for them to develop that which is inside of them and be taken out. And that I think is called them to true humanity. So I don’t see really a recipe for So changing the world city. So

Ken Taylor
there’s a there’s well, so your way, man. So there’s this relentlessly negative pessimism. And there’s no positive message for how to ameliorate Is that what you’re telling me, there’s no pathway for ameliorating the world, I want a philosophy that doesn’t just criticize the world. I don’t want a philosophy that says, here’s how you ameliorate the

Speaker 2
world, correct. And that that begins with yourself, that begins with yourself. And if you have children, it begins with your children, we have neighbors, you’re tempted to pass these around to which I unfortunately have the sense is, it’s ultimately futile activity in the large scale, so we just have to

John Perry
you can’t you sound like the kind of philosopher for whom philosophy is more of a constellation than a recipe for changing the world.

Speaker 2
I don’t know. I don’t know if consolation is the appropriate word is, is is a project we have is a project we have. When you think of great philosophers in certainly I’m not one of them, who knows they have a project about their lives, they know exactly in what direction they are moving. That includes, for example, philosopher with whom I have a great deal of affinity niches, for example, despite all the things that about him, Nietzsche was a man of absolute reason thought, in the can that be taught that is a problem See, I cannot be injected into into the political sphere, for example, if you if you are aware of all the difficulties that governments have, there is no rationality in, in what they think what they do, how they act, they have to go into violence, they have to go into parties they have to go into so on.

Ken Taylor
So you think you can have a project of self amelioration, guided by cynicism. And if we each try to ameliorate ourselves, maybe the view is, if I just take care of my own business, ameliorate myself and get you to do the same, the world will take care of itself. So we don’t need any Grand Designs for changing the world is that a good way to sum it up? Perhaps,

Speaker 2
it is, but, but ultimately, we are in the presence of what the Greeks used to call the Utopia the prospect of a utopia, you know, Utopia means in Greek no place, which is ultimately then like a dream we have. But But I am responsible for my life, I’m responsible for what I do for the things I say at least most of the time in the in this fashion, then I have, I have contributed perhaps a little bit towards towards the amelioration of the human condition. A, this is my own personal point of view or my own the way I act. In the, in the, for example, a I am also very much attached to the ideas of Immanuel Kant, especially in his last years in there is a work of Kant called eternal peace. internal peace is monumental short piece in there is Kant in a certain sense, saying the same thing I’m saying and perhaps the same things. Diogenes also saw that

Ken Taylor
No, Louise, we’re gonna we’re gonna thank you for joining us. There’s a lot more we could talk about, but we’re near the end. So thanks so much for joining us.

Luis Navia
Thank you very much.

Ken Taylor
I guess it’s been Luis navio. He’s a professor of philosophy at the New York Institute of Technology author of Diogenes the cynic the war against the world. So John, you got some last thoughts here about their journeys? Well,

John Perry
I have to admit, I didn’t know much about Diogenes. I found Professor navvies book quite fascinating and helpful. And and but you know, and you know, if I could go to Washington, DC and stand outside of the Congress, and take all my clothes off and urinate and even defecate and could by doing that, say, Get congressmen to quit taking money from other people. I would do it but i don’t i Diogenes example seems to be that if if you do something like that a place you know, you’ll be absorbed as a local character. With a flair for PR and you won’t really change anything. So

Ken Taylor
I agree with you. I love the impulse to change the world by performing one’s philosophy courageously and but the methodology was a little bit strange, but this conversation continues on our blog, the blog, that philosophy dot O R G where a motto is get this koto mo Blago I think, therefore I blog you can also follow our tweets on Twitter. And you can find out more by visiting our very active Facebook page.

John Perry
Well now we’re going to turn to the fastest cynic of them all but but maybe in the modern sense of not taking himself too seriously and being a little skeptical about norms he doesn’t go around naked and he never urinate in public he and shows the 62nd philosopher

Ian Shoales
in shows the Ancient Greece cynicism and body to belief in virtue as a way of life. Today, it’s a great idea to a belief that nobody is virtuous. This cynicism has given us wars, bloated movie sequels and crocodile tears about the innocence of Miley Cyrus. Ancient cynicism arrived with antecedentes, a follower of Socrates, who was fired himself by a guy named Diogenes. We don’t know much about him, except for a lot of colorful anecdotes called crai in Greek. Now, we don’t get create anymore, but it used to be a mainstay of classical rhetoric. Like the story about the guy that dinner party woman says to him, if you’re my husband, I give you a poison. He says, You’re my wife, madam. I drink it. And it’s either Winston Churchill, Samuel Clemens, Oscar Wilde, or Andrew Lloyd George, who said it accuracy isn’t the name of a crayon so much as illustrating a point. And Diogenes was a fountain of crai. He was so virtuously natural. He lived in a tub in the marketplace, even throw away a cup and he saw somebody drinking from cupped hands. The most famous story is the one about diabetes and Alexander the Great Bear bones. Alexander when he died, and he asked if he wanted anything died, and he said yes, standing with a lot of my son. Rather than slay Diogenes and a murderous rage. Alexander laughed with his comrades and said, Truly, if I were not Alexander, I would be Diogenes. I have no idea what that means. And I would like to point out that nobody uses the word truly in everyday conversation, and a variation of the story that he’s adds. If I were not Diogenes, I would want to be Diogenes. I’m not sure what that means either. But it has the virtue of being trippy. Supposedly, this all happened in Corinth during the Isthmian Games The only time Alexandria was ever in Corinth, but Adney supposedly was a slave to a Corinthian at the time. This master awed by his philosophical skills, just let him roam around the Agora and his tub. Also, Alexandria would have been just 20 and had not yet embarked upon conquer ridge. So why would guide you need to know who he was? And if he didn’t, there’s not much point to diet and he’s dissing him. Also, everything I read about Diogenes makes him seem like a really obnoxious, smelly homeless guy. His ability to irritate it seems it’s what made him famous with Alexandria really seek out a guy like that, as a handsome young prince when he much rather go drinking with his friends and go do favors for a smelly guy in a tub. And again, greatness aside, why would dad and he’s talked to him at all, on second thought, what an opportunity for a fame securing soundbite lest we forget that it is also as the guy who carried around a lantern looking for an honest man. What’s the point of that? from a modern perspective seems more like a publicity stunt than legitimate quest. Or maybe I’m just cynical, I gotta go.

John Perry
Philosophy Talk is a presentation of Ben Manilla production and of the trustees of Leland Stanford Junior University copyright 2013.

Ken Taylor
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John Perry
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Ken Taylor
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John Perry
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Ken Taylor
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John Perry
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Ken Taylor
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John Perry
The conversation continues on our website, philosophytalk.org. I’m John Perry.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Thank you for listening.

John Perry
And thank you for thinking.

Casablanca
You are a very cynical person Rick, if you forgive me for saying. I forgive you.