Immigration and Multiculturalism

Ken Taylor
Should immigrants assimilate into their new society?

Josh Landy
Or should society adapt to make room for different cultures?

Ken Taylor
Aren’t there some foreign customs locals should never accept?

Josh Landy
Welcome to Philosophy Talk the program that questions everything…

Ken Taylor
…except your intelligence. I’m Ken Taylor.

Josh Landy
And I’m Josh Landy. We’re here at the studios of KALW San Francisco.

Ken Taylor
Continuing conversations that begin at PhilosophersCcorner on the Stanford campus, where I teach philosophy and Josh directs the Philosophy and Literature initiative.

Josh Landy
Today we’re thinking about Immigration and Multiculturalism.

Ken Taylor
Multiculturalism. Josh, such a buzzword these days, is the idea that each culture within a society should maintain its own identity rather than assimilating to the dominant one sort of, like, you know, a salad bar rather than the good old fashioned melting pot.

Josh Landy
Yeah, that’s right. And the salad is delicious. Okay, you know, I benefit for myself I’m, I’m an immigrant here, but you know, I get to hang on to some my Britishness I get to watch real football. Not that fake kind that you guys enjoy. I get to drink single malt scotch and my Earl Gray tea.

Ken Taylor
Josh, I love you, dude. But you’re kidding yourself. You’re the most assimilated Brit. I know. I make your accent. It’s almost totally American. Dude, you you talk loudly in restaurants even when you’re abroad, just like ugly America? I bet I bet. Come on, tell me the truth. When you go back to England, people look at you and say, you’ve become so Yanga fired? What happened? Guilty as charged? Well, don’t don’t feel bad. That’s a good thing. I mean, think about it. People from all over the world come here. We they joined together in a common national vision manner, a shared project set aside are what separates us. And we focused on what brings us together. That’s what got us to the moon, Josh: can-do American spirit.

Josh Landy
Yeah, but you know, assimilation also comes at a real cost can you know, I mean, think about a Muslim person who moves through a majority Christian country, but that person could assimilate, but they’d have to give up their religion. And that seems like a pretty high price to pay.

Ken Taylor
I’m not telling people they have to give up their religion, make them live out their separate identities in the private sphere, that’s fine with me. But when it comes to the public sphere, when we all get together to deliberate about how to solve our collective problems, but that’s precisely when we need to focus on our shared humanity, and check our identities at the door of the public square.

Josh Landy
I don’t agree, like I think it’s beneficial, not just for individuals, but also for society. If you have people living out their differences in public, I mean, just think about food. Are you telling me you want people to cook their delicious curries and pastors and enchiladas in secret and not let anybody else have a taste?

Ken Taylor
Just like that’s a terrible metaphor. I’m not talking about food food, never did anyone any arm that’s not the issue. I guess you never have British food. And I don’t intend to the problem with multiculturalism, is that some cultures you know, they include elements of some pretty ugly things, misogyny, homophobia, racism. Would you rather people shed those attitudes when they come to America?

Josh Landy
Oh, right. Like people born in America, never have any of those attitudes.

Ken Taylor
Hey, come on. I grant, you know, Americans, our fellow Americans can be you know, a little bigoted at times a little racist, a little xenophobic, but all that it doesn’t deserve a place in our liberal democracy. Look, whether or not we always live up to them, our norms and institutions. They’re all about fairness, they’re about equal treatment. So what do you propose instead? Mr. Multiculturalism, when people come in with very different norms, very different laws and customs? What do you propose?

Josh Landy
Laws? Are you talking about Sharia law?

Ken Taylor
Yeah, I mean, are you saying we should let immigrants who endorse Sharia, for example, just to take an instance? I mean, maybe rewrite the Civil Code or live by their own laws in their own little communities?

Josh Landy
Is that what you’re proposing? I’m not saying that I’m not talking about people rewriting the law. I’m just saying let them do their own thing. I mean, it’s just like John Stuart Mill said, as long as what they’re doing isn’t harming anybody. We should accept it. We should even welcome it.

Ken Taylor
No, nobody is doing harm. It’s undermining national solidarity. You can’t have solidarity. If every little sub community has its own practices, its own norms, its own language—you just can’t, Josh.

Josh Landy
Mais non, monsieur—tout le monde devrait parler français!

Ken Taylor
Wait, wait, wait, wait. That was French, right? Are you telling me it’s suddenly you’re okay with everyone speaking the same language? What as long as it’s French?

Josh Landy
Oui, pourqui pas?

Ken Taylor
You’re kidding. You’re kidding. You’re like You’re like those French Canadians who want to outlaw English. Would that really be so? Oh, he blew. I know you’re not serious. At least I hope not. Because But on that note, we sent our Roving Philosophical Reporter, Holly J. McDede, to find out how Quebec has tried to preserve its identity as a French speaking region, often at the expense of its own multicultural heritage. She files this report.

Holly McDede
As a young child, the Czech language was all Julie Sedivy knew. Then her family moved from what was then Czechoslovakia through Austria, Italy and finally East Montreal. She learned French from kids in the neighborhood, but started school in English.

Julie Sedivy
It was implicitly clear to me even as a child that English was the most prestigious language to speak that it was the language in which things got done the language of serious people the language of education.

Holly McDede
This was in the 1970s, when almost all immigrants in Quebec chose to have their kids educated in English—like Sedivy’s parents did. But the French speakers of Quebec felt their culture and language threatened by the pull of English in multicultural Canada. So Quebec officials took action.

Julie Sedivy
Quebec put in place a set of language laws that would prohibit immigrants like my family from educating their children in English. After a certain time, they were only allowed to send their kids to school in French.

Holly McDede
The government’s language laws also required all business signs or brochures to be in French even wine lists and menus. These rules were enforced by Quebec language enforcement agency nicknamed the “language police.” This enraged some of Quebec’s minority Anglophones and frustrated Sedivy. Even as a kid she saw how English could be used like a currency to win acceptance and approval.

Julie Sedivy
Certain extended family members had their choice of language curtailed by those language laws. I think it sort of shifted the assumptions about which language was most useful and most valuable. Now all of a sudden, you became very handicapped if you didn’t speak French, it became harder to find a job.

Holly McDede
But now she understands why the government did this. Sedivy is a writer and a cognitive scientist who specializes in languages. When her dad died, she realized how much he missed her native Czech tongue.

Julie Sedivy
I’m now more aware of the fact that dominant language like English really has the potential to steamroll over minority languages unless something is done to bolster the status of of some of those weaker or smaller languages.

Holly McDede
The language laws did help preserve French and Quebec and younger generations aren’t as concerned that the language will die out now.

Dan Bilefsky
I’ve discovered a changed landscape.

Holly McDede
Dan Bilefsky also grew up in Montreal. He lived abroad for 28 years but recently returned as a New York Times correspondent

Dan Bilefsky
The cultural wars of the past have largely dissipated and the younger generation is much more interested in being the next Quebecois Bill Gates than in revisiting the atomistic linguistic arguments of the past.

Holly McDede
In contemporary Quebec hip-hop you hear a lot of language mixing. Take the francophone rap group Dead Obies.

Dead Obies
We just gettin’ started et pis t’es captivated Looking at me now, thinking: « How’d he made it? » J’suis tellement plus about being felt que famous Que même moi, j’sais plus what the hell my name is

Holly McDede
Or the comedian Sugar Sam, who jokes in both French and English.

Sugar Sam
Alright, welcome to the illegal English edition.

Holly McDede
In his routines, he often jokes about language.

Sugar Sam
You have a French accent. You’re practicing your French accent? While speaking English? You don’t need to do that, man!

Holly McDede
But you can still find some language purists in Quebec. Sugar Sam’s critics have called him a franco-folk-federalist bully and a traitor. Quebec legislators recently told shopkeepers to stop saying, “Bonjour, hi.” An Italian restaurant in Montreal faced the ire of the language police for saying ‘polpette instead of ‘boulettes de viande’ and ‘pasta’ instead of ‘pâtes’.

Dan Bilefsky
The language laws in Quebec are always bubbling underneath the surface and every so often they wield their heads.

Holly McDede
Some efforts to preserve secular French culture take more extreme forms. A little over a decade ago, the rural Quebec village of Hérouxville introduced a code of conduct for immigrants. The code explained that people in the village enjoyed dancing music and Christmas trees. But some rules could also be seen as extremely Islamophobic, like warnings against stoning women in public and burning them alive. Bilefsky visited that village for a New York Times piece last year.

Dan Bilefsky
Really many people who I spoke to were quite unrepentant about this code of conduct, thought it was a good thing, and thought that immigrants who come to Quebec really do need to assimilate and integrate integrate to local norms.

Holly McDede
When Bilefsky thinks of lingering cultural battles over Quebec’s identity, he’s reminded up two sculptures near the Old Port of Montreal. One is of a French woman wearing a Chanel suit and clasping a poodle. On the other side, an English man holds a pug.

Dan Bilefsky
Their dogs—the poodle and the pug—are staring longingly at each other.

Holly McDede
Meanwhile, the two statues—one French, one English—look away. Bilefsky says these statues symbolize Quebec’s two enduring solitudes. For what it’s worth, the statues are also known as “the two snobs.” For Philosophy Talk, I’m Holly J. McDede.

Ken Taylor
Thanks for that battlefield report from the Quebecois language wars, Holly. I’m Ken Taylor, with me as my Stanford colleague Josh Landy. And today we’re thinking about immigration, and multiculturalism.

Josh Landy
We’re joined now by Sarah Song, Professor of Law and Political Science at the University of California, Berkeley, and author of “Immigration and Democracy.” Welcome back to Philosophy Talk, Sarah.

Sarah Song
Thank you for having me.

Ken Taylor
So Sarah, you I think, as originally you’re from Korea, and your family moved to the United States when you were just a kid, right? Is that what got you interested in these questions?

Sarah Song
Absolutely. I think my experience as an immigrant has shaped my interest in immigration. I remember being six years old and immigrating from South Korea to Raytown, Missouri, and my first day of school, in first grade, not speaking any English. And with the incredible support of my teachers and my classmates, I was able to quickly learn the language. But it left a vivid impression on me that it it’s not just the effort, or the attitudes that the immigrants themselves have, but the context and the reception and the support that they receive from the the host society that makes a difference.

Josh Landy
Yeah. So try that makes me think and hope that you you were on my side, when Ken and I were were disagreeing earlier, when I was I was suggesting that multiculturalism is a good thing, both for individuals and society. Ken was worrying that reduces solidarity and a sense of common purpose. So So where do you stand on this kind of question?

Sarah Song
Yeah. So Josh, I think I’m mostly sympathetic to your position I was the most. So I do think that immigrants should be expected to adapt to the basic norms and basic laws of the societies to which they have migrated. But and I think, but I also think that they should be able to maintain their distinctive identities and practices, so long as they don’t cause harm to others. And so when Ken was talking about misogyny and homophobia and racism, of course, there should be limits, just as there are limits for people who are born and raised in the US who are American citizens. But I think there’s a lot of room for toleration and accommodation of distinctive cultural practices beyond just what we eat.

Ken Taylor
I want to believe all that I really do want to believe all that, but you know, societies around the world. I mean, that sounds easy, right? societies around the world are being torn apart over these. I know, Europeans used to think they were so superior to the United States. And I and I used to think well just wait until you have to deal with a flood of immigrants that you’re not sure about welcoming, given what you say. It sounds like an easy solution. Why is it so hard? Why is it ripping nations apart?

Sarah Song
Well, I think because identity matters so much to people. And maybe with migration crisis in Europe, a really important issue is that, for example, Germans in Germany have feel a sense of the German nest is under threat. Right? And, and I think what we need to do is instead of giving into xenophobia, and nativism we should we should think about, well, maybe we can have a more inclusive conception of what it means to be German or what it means.

Josh Landy
That’s what’s gonna say, because isn’t, isn’t this whole notion of German is somewhat illusory. I mean, not completely illusory, but then we tend to reify. What a nation is, it’s one thing everyone’s always done the same thing, though the same way.

Ken Taylor
Tell that to those Quebecois in Holly’s report. I mean, there’s something real that they felt right now, there are a minority within a nation, but they’re a majority within Quebec, and they want it to preserve their—

Josh Landy
I mean, I think it’s okay, if it’s a language, yeah, if you speak a language, you speak a language, but the idea that, you know, there’s a thing called German culture, that’s always been the same since the middle ages or something like that. And everyone’s always had it injured felted in Germany, is this really true? What do you think?

Sarah Song
Well, look, so culture is constructed, and we can reconstruct it and reimagine it right? And absolutely, identity is felt as a real and important thing to the kabaka. I think actually, Quebec and in the broader context of Canada is a really good example of, right. So the Canadian government that defers to the importance of preserving the French language in the context of Quebec, but also recognizing there’s an Anglophone minority. And so we need to kind of it’s it’s a tricky road, but this middle ground.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, it’s very tricky. Canada is very tricky, very different from the US, but we’ll talk more about this. You’re listening to Philosophy Talk. Today, we’re thinking about Immigration and Multiculturalism with Sarah Song from the UC Berkeley School of Law.

Josh Landy
Did you come from another country as I did have You assimilated or have you maintained your distinctive cultural traditions? Should new arrivals adjust to local norms? Or should we adjust to them?

Ken Taylor
Separation, assimilation, and integration—plus your calls and emails, when Philosophy Talk continues.

Gil-Scott Heron
You have got to hold on to your dreams.

Ken Taylor
Immigrants dreaming of a new culture, natives holding on to the old. I’m Ken Taylor. This is Philosophy Talk the program that questions everything…

Josh Landy
…except your intelligence. I’m Josh Landy, and we’re thinking about Immigration and Multiculturalism. Our guests is Sarah song from the UC Berkeley School of Law, author of “Immigration and Democracy.”

Ken Taylor
So Sarah, oh, look at this from two perspectives, the immigrants perspective and the nativist perspective, but start with the immigrant, I’m into a new country, I got my thick identity and my culture. But how much should I reasonably expect that I have to adapt to the dominant culture? And how much should I can I demand that it been to my needs and desires and identity? And where does that come from?

Sarah Song
So I think that immigrants, as I said earlier, should be expected to adapt to the basic norms and abide by the basic laws of the society. At the same time, I think they should be given lots of room to practice, engage in their own cultural practices.

Ken Taylor
But if I want to hear the voice of the immigrant speaking to the dominant culture, and giving the dominant culture an argument, that you owe it to me to let me do XY and Z, right? And what’s the argument that the immigrant can make? What’s the set of consideration that the immigrant can make to the dominant culture to say, this is what you owe me?

Sarah Song
Great, I think it’s an argument from a quality I think it says, you may not experience it as cultural but the dominant culture gets to enjoy its norms, its own practices are already embodied in the law already embodied in our social structures. Consider religious holidays, or the days of rest, right? Sunday, right? Where do we get that from? If we take a historical view? But what if your day of rest is Saturday? Right? As it is for Seventh Day Adventist or or right, other religious minorities? And you say, Well, can I have some accommodation here? So similarly, when a migrant comes in says, I can’t speak English? Not yet. Anyway, what about multilingual ballots, so I can exercise my right to vote, right? Or what about some support for English as a second language learners in schools? What about bilingual education?

Ken Taylor
So these are sort of one thing quickly. Suppose I said, as the dominant culture the native, I said, Well, wait a minute, dude. Or gal or whoever, if you need all that. What are you coming here? I didn’t invite you here. You asked to come here. And I got I don’t have multi lingual balance. Why are you telling me that I owe you a multi lingual ballot? Why Why don’t you stay where you are, if you want a multilingual ballot?

Sarah Song
So I think the good we need to think about why do migrants come? Why are they admitted? And so it’s huge pull factor is labor needs. Right? And we’re there. So immigrants are recruited here to meet the labor needs of the United States. And so they’re at but I think that there’s a debate to be had. And we’re having that debate about what is it reasonable for immigrants to ask for? When they come? I think it’s a raw deal. If they say, Okay, if you if the immigrant says, Let me in, and then I’ll do whatever you say, you can treat me in any way you wish. You think in a liberal democratic society such as ours, our aspiration should be to treat immigrants in a fair way.

Josh Landy
I agree. I think absolutely. The the newcomers have a perfect right to say you owe us fair treatment. I would add, I don’t see what you think about this, Sarah, that, you know, it’d be within the right of an immigrant to say, look at what your country has become, because of generations of immigrants coming to this country. I mean, so something like half of the Nobel Prize winners in the United States over the past couple of years, were immigrants or people from families who had fairly recently immigrated to the States. I also think about the British novel, you know, Sadie Smith, Kenosha guru, Salman Rushdie, like where would the British novel be right now, if it weren’t for waves of immigration? So what do you think about that? I mean, I feel like there’s there’s a real argument to be made about cultural renewal. There’s a there’s something maybe intangible there’s something really important that that immigration brings.

Sarah Song
Absolutely, I think pointing to the arts and to literature is a really good example as well as food.

Bandersnatch
We all agree.

Sarah Song
All the ways in which immigration has benefits the receiving societies in really rich ways.

Ken Taylor
I get that I and I think those are powerful considerations that you both reduce, but I’m still gonna, I don’t really want to speak for the xenophobe. i This is a little uncomfortable. But I think the argument—

Josh Landy
I take you to be speaking more from solidarity.

Ken Taylor
Yeah, it is. It is it is. But it’s easy to confuse it. Because I think if you accept a conditional, if I invite you, then I have to invite you in terms of fair participation. Right, that seems right. And if I invite you, and I have to think about my reasons for inviting you, and I can’t invite you to just be a second class citizen. Right? That’s, that seems right. Okay. But now the further question that Josh was kind of getting at this is, why should I invite you? If I invite you because I have labor needs? Okay, fine. I invite you because I have labor needs. Of course, I could do this. What the Germans used to do. I know, they still do this with the Turks. It’s like really hard for a Turk, to become a citizen of Germany, but I guess just worker. I don’t know if they’ve kept that up. But I mean, I could do something like that. Yeah, I’m not really inviting you for full participation, because I want to protect my culture. Right? And I know that I’d have to, if I invite you to engage in full participation I have to give in. But I still care about my culture that you can be a guest worker. I mean, why should I invite the immigrant who will? Cultural really new and Amin, all that stuff?

Sarah Song
Great. So I, I should just say, As a quick note, in Germany in 2000, they change their citizenship laws, I think it for the better were, well, it was pretty ugly, right? So you had second third generation descendants of Turks who knew no other culture or no other society than Germany, not able to become German citizens. But now, they have been able to become German citizens. And I think that that’s right. So yeah, this is a morally vexing area, the kind of how should we think about guest worker programs? And I talked about that in my book, but I think for now, it’s important to stress that it depends. Are we admitting you for permanent residents, and is the expectation that you will become full members. And I think that temporary worker programs are a special category. But even there, I think for the duration, if you’re doing the work that you’re supposed to be doing, why shouldn’t you be able to pursue your cultural practices, so long as you’re not causing harm?

Ken Taylor
I totally agree about that. But I’m just wondering to the person who wants to preserve this kind of solidarity, national solidarity. I mean, you might think, well, I, I’ll invite guest workers, because I’m not inviting them to be permanent members. And so the terms of equal participation in my social life are more constrained. And I’m thinking to, I mean, Japan, I don’t know what Japan thinks about this. But it’s seems so much hostile to most America to America, and even Western European democracies to immigration. And I’m not quite sure why they are great.

Sarah Song
Japan is a really interesting case, because it is much less multicultural society than the US. And and so the question there is, can they continue to exclude people on the basis of their cultural identities? Here’s the thing about Japan, though, that population is aging, the birth rate is low, and they have huge labor needs that they’re going to have to meet. And so they may, they’re probably going to have to open up to immigration. And the question there is, do they try to select people who are going to be more culturally similar? Or are they just going to try to think about who’s going to meet those labor needs, regardless of cultural identity? And I do think they should have the discretion to think about closeness to their their culture in in selecting whom they admit, but once they admit them, right, they should, they should treat them in fair ways.

Josh Landy
I agree. But let’s back up to the question of these criteria that they have. I mean, here I have a kind of perplexity about my own intuitions about whether immigration policy should ever factor in national or ethnic identities. Because when I think about Native American communities, those communities get to decide on membership. That seems exactly as it should be to me, Japan, I think not sure what I think but I think maybe that’s okay. If they decide, look, we want to preserve our culture. But when I think of Britain, my home country, and Britain saying we don’t want anyone of a different culture, I think, no way. So what’s the difference? You help me resolve the distinctions there?

Sarah Song
Yes, we need to think so. Those are really good examples. I think Britain is already a multiracial, multi ethnic, multicultural society, multinational to multinational right. And so to say, I think it would be insulting and a denial of the equal respect of right racial and ethnic minorities that are who are British.

Josh Landy
In a way the the very identity of a country like Britain is is multiplicity.

Sarah Song
That’s right and so it sort of goes against that ideal, that multicultural ideal to then say, we’re not going to, we’re going to exclude people from the Caribbean, right or from Nigeria, or—

Ken Taylor
That’s the price of being conquerors, you know. You’re listening to Philosophy Talk about multiculturalism and immigration with Sara Song from University of California at Berkeley, we’d love to have your comments or question. And Howard from San Francisco is on the line. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Howard, what’s your comment or question?

Howard
I would just like to catch this and maybe what I think of as a, as a deeper kind of moral level, which is about the rules of hospitality, their responsibilities of the host and responsibilities of the guests, that I think are primal undergirding for civilization to begin with. And I think it’s the old story about, you know, the gods dressing up as wayfarers who show up at the door of a hut, where an old couple who are impoverished, give them their dinner and their bed and go to sleep hungry on the floor. And in the morning, the God’s revealed themselves and grant them their fondest wish, which is to die at the same time together. And there’s so many levels to that, that it seems to me, if we had, if we start from a place of really deep humanity like that, and then address the questions, we might come to a different sort of solution.

Ken Taylor
Thanks for the comment, Howard. Sarah, you got a reaction to that?

Sarah Song
Yeah. So I think there is a rich tradition of thinking about hospitality and the kind of obligations of hospitality and the history of moral and political philosophy. And I think, right, so it kind of speaks to basic treatment, kind of equal treatment that human beings are owed in virtue of being human. I think that hospitality only gets us so far, though, because it’s talking about temporary migrants sojourners, who are owed, you know, a welcome for a time, but the expectation is, they won’t be staying. And I feel like our conversations really focused on those who are going to be permanently staying.

Ken Taylor
Right, your guest doesn’t have the standing to fundamentally alter your familial relations. Right. But I hear you and Josh saying that the immigrant that you welcome that you invite, and accept that as a full participant does have standing to say, this culture needs to evolve, and I’m going to be part of the evolving of it. Do I hear that correctly?

Sarah Song
That’s right, because I think the decision to admit a migrant or group of migrants is done with the expectation that they will become full members of that society. And so when you make that invitation, right, that they can make that claim upon you to say, Hey, I’m entitled to equal treatment, and sometimes treating me as an equal requires special accommodations, different accommodations.

Ken Taylor
Vincent from Cupertino is on the line, welcome to Philosophy Talk, Vincent.

Vincent
Yes, I wanted to speak about like, I suppose I see it in both ways. And I’m an immigrant. In the US, I live in California. And I was living for some time in France, where I suppose I see I saw a lot of immigration going on. And for me that there is actually no doubt about the benefits of immigration within country. I mean, in a way I see because I think a lot of a lot of really good people very professional, come to the US and work here. And we try to get the best out of a job. And I saw that as well, in even with all the problems that can be, I saw that in France as well, I saw the benefit of having multiple cultural, come in my country, and be able to get so much fun.

Ken Taylor
So you see the big thanks for that. Thanks for the comment. I see the benefits of immigration, too. I definitely see the benefits of immigration. But I also see the challenge of immigration. I mean, I just think it seems really hard. Especially Okay, I want to put another kind of question to you. Some immigrants are from cultures that we find, let’s say deeply problematic, we may think we’re right to find them deeply problematic. And we may say, You got to check this at the door and that at the door and this at the door, but you can bring that but you got to check your homophobia at the door. Right? You don’t believe in gay marriage what we do here? What do we say to those people? Right? Because that’s like, the easy stuff is you got to respect this that the other thing but the hard stuff is you’ve got to abandon these things that are deep within your cultural formation. What do we say to those people?

Sarah Song
I think we I we have to be careful about so absolutely. We in liberal democratic societies, we want to criticize and condemn homophobia, misogyny, racism, but we have to ask, what does that have to do with culture? It’s Is it? Is it the bad behavior of individuals are? Or can we draw a straight line to and say, Oh, it’s their culture that made them do it? And so, but your question Can gets me a reminds me of I think it was the Netherlands that the government produced this video that then it sent to predominantly Muslim countries that showed this is what Dutch culture consists of. And there were lots of images of LGBT couples, right on the beach, holding hands embracing. And the message was, if you cannot accept, right that this is what dutchculture is about, you shouldn’t come You shouldn’t come

Ken Taylor
Wow. How was that received?

Sarah Song
Mixed. To say the least. But but but you get the I see where your questions coming from. But But I think here’s what I think is was problematic about those videos, which is sort of it already assumes it already assumes that the cultures or the communities that they’re sending these videos to, are kind of deeply ingrained in a certain set of beliefs. And I think it’s much more there’s more disagreement. And I think cultures are much more multifaceted.

Josh Landy
On the other side, the Dutch culture is homogenous.

Ken Taylor
Vut wait a minute, does that make it really complex? Because somebody may claim to be the arbiter of Muslim cultural identity? And we say we don’t accept. But if there’s disagreement within the, within the Muslim subculture, do we as the dominant have a right to protect the minorities within that minority? From the coercion of you know, that would be Arbiter’s? And doesn’t that make it even more complicated?

Sarah Song
Great question. This is something I’ve thought a lot about and have written about. But so take a concrete example like the headscarf affair right in in France and you have these young Muslim women wanting to wear the headscarf in the French state state saying no, you can’t wear them to school and in the public sphere. And there I think we have to attend to it. There’s disagreement in the community about what wearing the veil what wearing the headscarf means. And I think we have to be careful to rush to judgment that oh, the veil or the headscarf is a symbol of oppression. Right. We it’s it’s contested and we need to be careful about making that.

Ken Taylor
Okay, I’m gonna ask you, we’re gonna ask you more about this great conversation. You’re listening to Philosophy Talk. We’re thinking about Immigration and Multiculturalism with Sarah Song from the UC Berkeley School of Law.

Josh Landy
In a rapidly changing world. How should countries adjust to the influx of new migrants? Should there be the same borders, tighter borders, no borders at all?

Ken Taylor
Tearing down walls—when Philosophy Talk it continues

Manu Chao
Mano Negra clandestina, Peruano clandestino, Africano clandestino, Marihuana ilegal.

Ken Taylor
Migration, clandestine and otherwise, is remaking the world. I’m Ken Taylor, and this is Philosophy Talk, the program that questions everything…

Josh Landy
…except your intelligence. I’m Josh Landy. Our guest is Sarah Song from the UC Berkeley School of Law. And we’re thinking about Immigration and Multiculturalism.

Ken Taylor
And we’ve got a caller—Phillip from New Mexico, all the way from New Mexico, you must be listening online, Philip, welcome to Philosophy Talk. What’s your comment or question?

Philippe
Well, thanks for taking my call. My My name is actually Philippe and that’s relevantly, okay, I’m born. My mother is a French Jew, who survived the Vichy occupation. But her father and her brother, who were born in Poland did not they were deported. And so I’m sort of right on the front line of some of your your conversation. And what’s really opposite, I guess, is we’ve been discussing a French intellectual by the name of Eric zamore. I don’t know if your guest is familiar with him. He is a French Jew, who is very critical of French immigrants, recent French immigrants, and their reluctance to assimilate. And so literally, I was talking to my mom 20 minutes ago about zamore. And the whole issue of what back in the 1960s in this country, we call beyond the melting pot.

Ken Taylor
So Okay, Sarah, you ready to be active? Thanks for the call. Philip. Thanks for the observation and react.

Sarah Song
Yes. So I look, I think the integration of immigrants is a two way street. And it matters very much that the immigrants seek to integrate at but I also think it makes a big difference, the kind of reception that the French government or the US government provides to immigrants. And I think it’s through policies like some of the multiculturalism policies or accommodation policies that provide a more welcoming environment. And some of it may just seem purely symbolic, and people may dismiss them in at can, in your role. You might be dismissing them saying why is it really that important? Just expect people to assimilate, but I actually think that people’s sense of belonging Are they really welcome here makes a difference to their orientation to the broader society. And if there’s xenophobia, if there’s pushback, or or just the assumption that everybody who’s coming these recent days, refuses to integrate, I think that’s, that’s a problem.

Ken Taylor
So one of the things I was taking from this discussion, you talked about policies and all that from the government. But I actually think it sounds like you think, and I think I really agree that what one of the things that needed is what I call civic conversations about these things, that we just we have very, one of the things that depresses me to no end about America, is the decline of the civic space in which citizens meet each other and face to face and engage in civic discourse with one another, we have so few fruitful civic conversations, and it sounds like but part of what we need is like, hey, let’s talk this through, you know, so that I know what matters to you. You know, it matters to me, and it’s like a family in therapy. I think the American family needs tons of civic therapy.

Sarah Song
I’m all for that. We need more conversations like this more civic conversations, where absolutely can it’s not just about the policies, or the formal official kind of reception that immigrants are given. It’s about an ethos, our or our own attitudes in everyday life toward the different people that we encounter.

Josh Landy
But even Of course, even the policies, my friends, is a great example of this, to get back to the headscarf issue. I mean, France, has had a headscarf ban in public schools. And that can lead to a kind of ironic result, if you have parents simply saying, all right, I’ll pull my kid from public school will educate or somewhere else that can have the opposite effect of what’s intended.

Sarah Song
Yeah, that’s right. And I think that’s a major downside of the band, in addition to its failure to kind of show equal respect toward French citizens of all backgrounds. And also, what’s the best way to get a teenager to do the very thing that you say the opposite right? To say you can’t wear you can stay right?

Ken Taylor
That’s it. That’s another matter of the absence of civic conversation, and just thinking policies are going to do the trick. But we got another caller Jackson from Berkeley. Welcome to Philosophy Talk, Jackson. What’s your comment or question?

Jackson
All right. My comment was more just, I think that there should be more consideration for the Native American perspective on this, because, in my opinion, anyway, I feel that we pretend that these are our lands, to decide on who and who to share them with, and how. And really, in my opinion, again, it seems it’s more, it’s not really like France, or Japan that was brought up with the host guests relation. More like pillagers. Now, wanting to respect the newcomers, and the newcomers wanting to feel respect, yeah. But without there being really respect for the first-comer first.

Ken Taylor
Jackson, you’re out, you’re raising a really deep and important point, and we’re getting to it at the end. So I’m gonna put it to you briefly. Because it’s true, I think there really is a difference between, let’s call it multiculturalism and multi nationalism, right? Especially a nation, like Josh’s nation born of conquest, and, and the rights of indigenous nationalities and all that stuff. And America has done really, really, really, really good I add some really badly in, in respecting the rights of the indigenous peoples here, Canada has at least better aspirations. I don’t know if they’re better in actuality, but their aspirations how to treat the indigenous peoples is is much better than America. So what do you think about that kind of stuff?

Sarah Song
So I think I think Jackson for the question, because I actually think there are implications for multiculturalism for Native Americans. And the idea there is respecting self government rights of Native Americans and Native peoples in both in Canada and in the US, that they get to determine who comes on to their tribal lands, who can be a member of their tribal communities. But I think the deeper point that Jackson is getting at is the right to control immigration or to set these policies assumes that the people currently residing here have a legitimate right to occupy and to to reside here and these are really hard, challenging moral questions.

Ken Taylor
We’re gonna have to have you back. But I want to give you one last task, really briefly, I want to we’re going to do something we do on philosophy talk from time to time, we’re going to make use czar of immigration policy for the entire world you have plenary powers. Okay, what’s the one or maybe two but very few things that you would do to set this whole thing this whole mess right?

Sarah Song
Wow, I wish I had more time to tell you all my ideas. But if I had to pick one or two, and if I were czar, I so in my book, I argue not for open borders or for closed borders, but what I called controlled borders and open doors. And I think that the US can do a much better job. And we’ve talked a lot about the benefits of immigration to the societies that receive immigration immigrants. And I think we should be much more generous than restrictive in admitting migrants for permanent residents. So President Trump, he wants high skilled, high tech workers, and he wants migrants from Scandinavia, he seems to especially like Norway, so country. Yeah, right. Right. But I actually think that we should open up to immigration, I also think that we have, we have to meet our obligations to take in refugees and other necessitous migrants who have nowhere else to go. And I think wealthy countries like the US are falling incredibly short of the obligation to do their fair share.

Josh Landy
Yeah, what’s the best way to make that argument to people who don’t believe it yet?

Sarah Song
The best way to make a humanitarian argument that says, right, and think if you were in their shoes, and the world is carved up into states, and they have nowhere else to go,

Ken Taylor
Yeah, this is complicated stuff. We’ll have to have you back. But for now, on this multifaceted conversation, Sarah, I have to thank you for joining us.

Sarah Song
Thank you so much for having me.

Ken Taylor
Our guest has been Sarah Song, Professor of Law and Political Science at the University of California, Berkeley, author of “Immigration and Democracy. “The conversation continues at Philosophers Corner, at our online community of thinkers, where our motto with apologies to Descartes is Cogito ergo Blogo, I think, therefore, I blog. And you can become a partner in that community just by visiting our website, philosophytalk.org.

Josh Landy
And if you have a question it wasn’t addressed in today’s show, we’d love to hear from you. Send it to us at comments@philosophytalk.org. And we may feature it on our blog. Now grab your popcorn—it’s time to take Philosophy Talk to the movies!

Ken Taylor
So Josh, you convinced me that I should watch this Netflix thing, “Bandersnatch.” Why did you want me to watch that? Set it up for us, this streaming entertainment event, I will call it that.

Josh Landy
So the basic —this is a feature length episode of the show Black Mirror. So it’s a movie. And it involves a character named Stefan, a young man, maybe 17-18, who’s a video game designer. And I won’t say too much about the plot, but he’s spending his time designing video games.

Ken Taylor
Back in the day.

Josh Landy
Good point. It’s what, the early 80s maybe?

Ken Taylor
80s yeah, somethong like that.

Josh Landy
But the plot is not the interesting thing. The interesting thing about this movie is you get to choose your own adventure. The character is designing a choose-your-own-adventure video game.

Ken Taylor
Based on the Choose Your Own Adventure book.

Josh Landy
That’s true. So there’s a Choose your own adventure novel within the world of the fiction. This character, Stefan is building a video game, it’s gonna be a choose your own adventure video game based on that novel, and we’re watching a choose your own adventure movie, Bandersnatch. And we actually get to press buttons on our remote to decide what happens in the show.

Bandersnatch
You’ve got ten seconds. Don’t worship him, he’s the Thief of Destiny. You’ve read Bandersnatch? Jerome F. Davies. Visionary.Which ending did you get when you read it? All of them. Excuse me? A lot of divergent realities in that book. It was ahead of its time. In as much as time exists.

Josh Landy
It’s really working the experiential side of art, right? Because sometimes you can be in more or less passive really know, a work of art can put you in a more or less passive relationship to it. Yeah, this one puts us in a really active relationship. And so the thinking that we do about freedom isn’t just about what happens in the movie. It’s not just about the characters and what they do. It’s about what we’re doing. How much freedom do we have? How much control do we have over what happens?

Ken Taylor
Yeah, except in some of the stories, something really weird happens, right? You are invited to make a choice that will how to put this cause the character Stefan to wonder, in effect, whether he’s a brain in a vat being manipulated by an evil demon, as it were, and you are that evil demon and you get that talk to him and he doesn’t know I mean, that’s not traditional narrative structure, in which a suddenly the character is talking to the author of his life and interacting with you. That’s not traditional narrative stretch.

Josh Landy
Isn’t that just a thing of absolute beauty? Right, that at a certain point, you have the option to say he’s talking to Netflix—you? And it’s a fantastic self-reflexive moment.

Bandersnatch
I don’t understand. I-I don’t understand. Who are you talking to? It’ll sound crazy. Well, tell me anyway. I’m being controlled by someone from the future. What? I’m being controlled by someone from the future. Shall I ring Dr. Haynes? Yes, please.

Ken Taylor
I have to say I think the philosophy and it’s a little jumbled and incoherent. I disagree. Oh, yeah. Well, we could talk about this for hours. Look, it confuses the issue of freedom versus fatalism with the issue of what’s called libertarian freedom versus compatibilism. It just really confused about this.

Josh Landy
I disagree,I mean, I think the crucial point is that these moments you’re referring to are statements made by characters. So you have characters talking about freedom. And some of them are talking about freedom versus was some of them are talking about freedom versus determinism. Some of them are talking about freedom versus fatalism. You were not obliged to take the word of a character. But that’s as the word of the writer. I mean, here’s the way I see Bandersnatch. In a nutshell, the characters, the central characters in the movie, think that spacetime is kind of, they kind of have a branching theory of spacetime. So that when you make a decision, you’re not actually changing anything, you’re just moving on to a different branch. And it follows from that, that we don’t have free will. And it follows from now it doesn’t. I know, I know. But the characters think this right? Or at least one of the characters thinks that and follows from that, that we don’t have responsibility. Now. Meanwhile, meanwhile, we’re watching this movie, clicking away on our remotes, and the clicks that we make, determine what happens at the end of this movie. And so the experience for us is an experience of freedom.

Bandersnatch
I killed my dad. Right. So are you gonna let me go, or are you gonna kill me? I mean, it’s your choice. In as much as you have any choice.

Josh Landy
if you’re watching this film, with the expectation of seeing a story that’s exciting and brand new, and something like that. Now, that’s, of course, you won’t get that. But if you’re, if you’re thinking you’re gonna have an experience you’d haven’t had before, then at least for somebody like me, I mean, it’s just extraordinarily exciting. And, and the playfulness, I mean, every now and again, they’ll give you a decision, and not allow you to make it. Yeah. Or they’ll give you a choice between two things that turned out to be exactly the same thing.

Ken Taylor
Right,that’s this thing about you don’t know which choices are consequential or not. And all this reason, like there’s a lot there’s an intellectually ambitious thing. Yeah. And in a way, it’s artistically ambitious thing. And it’s a mash up of things. And it doesn’t fit into any neat categories. And if you like that sort of stuff, then you’ll love Bandersnatch. And if you know you like once your movies traditional with a beginning, middle, and single end, you’ll be disoriented a bit, but maybe you’re supposed to be disoriented. That’s what art sometimes tries to do to you.

Bandersnatch
There’s a cosmic flowchart that dictates where you can and where you can’t go. I’ve given you the knowledge. I’ve set you free.

Josh Landy
We’ve been talking about Bandersnatch, a feature length episode of the Netflix series Black Mirror.

Ken Taylor
Philosophy Talk is a presentation of KALW local public radio San Francisco, and the trustees of Leland Stanford Junior University copyright 2018.

Josh Landy
Our executive producers are David Demarest and Tina Pamintuan.

Ken Taylor
The Senior Producer is Devon Strolovitch. Laura Maguire is our Director of Research. Cindy Prince Baum is our Director of Marketing.

Josh Landy
Thanks also to Merle Kessler, Angela Johnston and Lauren Schecter.

Ken Taylor
Support for Philosophy Talk comes from Stanford University and from the Partners at our online Community of Thinkers.

Josh Landy
The views expressed (or mis-expressed) on this program do not necessarily represent the opinions of Stanford University or other funders.

Ken Taylor
Not even when they’re true and reasonable.

Josh Landy
The conversation continues on our website, philosophytalk.org, where you too can become a partner in our community of thinkers. I’m Josh Landy.

Ken Taylor
And I’m Ken Taylor. Thank you for listening.

Josh Landy
And thank you for thinking.